Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system

[ncognet0]

Im pondering buying a new coach and am intrigued by the new Super Solar system by Keystone Montana. I really like the idea and concept that its 100% powered by the sun. They even claim it can run the AC units/microwave/heater... everything. My dilemma is this, the last "newest upgrade thing" I purchased was a tankless hot water heater in my old 5th wheel and hated it. I had to run several gallons of water through it before it got hot, that don't work for dry camping. That being said is the 15 K worth it for this off grid solar system? Anyone have it? Thoughts?

[kowbra]

BTW, jshupe, great info again; you really have been educating me on solar systems and in fact helps me understand better what I will actually be getting versus what I won't. Very helpful and greatly appreciated!

Brad

[kowbra]

jshupe wrote:

I just think saying it will "run the entire coach" is a big stretch as most people will buy it expecting to actually be able to run the AC, especially with all the marketing they push about soft starts and high efficiency units. That's going to leave many people sorely disappointed.

I guess agree to disagree on this part. Not a stretch at all; this system WILL "run the entire coach" including the AC, microwave, all outlets, furnace, etc.

Now if your use is to boondock in 100*+ weather, then this will not be the system for you. But that's not my use case... the whole idea for us is that our 5th wheel has wheels and when it gets too hot we move, and when it gets too cold, we move again. In fact, this is our first RV that will have a 2nd AC (over 10 years of extended RV use, 3-5 months per year)... We boondocked just fine for the past 3+ years with a single AC using 300 watts of solar, 2 T-105s and a 600 watt inverter with occasional portable gen use to top up or run the AC for an hour or 2... water was often a larger concern than battery and solar, and still will be...

I just don't believe that "most people" will need to run dual ACs for hours a day. There is a large part of the US and much of Canada where AC use is minimal and a 2nd AC isn't even installed... and there are buyers of RVs in all of these areas too.


I think from my research it will work fine for me and others like me, but of course YMMV... and I think it does 😉

Brad

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:
So, I talked to the Super Solar designer today and learned a few more details; for those who may be interested in this solution...

-the AC units are not just a soft start added. They draw 9 amps when running, so much more efficient than normal roof top units
-they are now adding 300 watt panels for a total of 1200 watts (noted earlier)
-they will be upgrading the MPPT charge controllers to dual 40 amp models
-there is a panel to remove to add another 500ah of lithium; this could be other manufacturers as long as the charge profile matched
-they are working on a drop in package from Keystone with dual DragonFly GC3 batteries for those who want a turn key 510ah upgrade to a total of 1020ah
-the design goal was that this would serve to run the entire coach and in many conditions would fully charge the batteries each day
-for those who may think their usage may tax or exceed the design, they do have the upgrade path as above, but also are suggesting that a portable generator could be used. For example, in situations where a solar only solution would be taxed, such as cloud, forest, etc, then even a larger system may not be enough. Of course, one could just keep overbuilding with more panels and battery storage to account for worst case scenario... or carry a small 2000w generator to charge the batteries for those times

I do hope this information is helpful for those considering this solution.
We placed our order including the Super Solar Flex and will be trying it out later this year. I will update all once we are able to test it.

Brad

Coleman Mach only makes one large unit that pulls 9A, the Mach 3 PS. It's a 13,500 BTU/ 12.5 EER unit that draws 9 to 11A when cooling. Datasheet here. Assuming you require two of them to cool your rig, that doesn't change the math all that much. In the heat of the day, with near perfect solar, you would at best break even on the AC alone (over the course of an hour) with 1200W of panels if running only one unit full out, or two on a 50% compressor cycle. It doesn't matter how efficient they are - they're not efficient enough to make the numbers work for running the AC any length of time with that amount of panels.

Assuming you're pulling 9A or 1075W as the datasheet says, and either running two units at 50% compressor or one unit full out to cool your rig, you're pulling 1075W, plus inverter losses. The Magnum MSH3012 series datasheet shows an efficiency of around 87% at 1kW (datasheet here, see P44) which means you are pulling at least 1215W just for AC alone. This is another reason why 24V and 48V are great options - you have much lower inverter losses at higher voltages, especially as loads increase (as exampled on the same chart on P44, for the 24V MSH4024M).

If you are running nothing but your air conditioning - you can expect to harvest enough energy to run your AC for 4.9 hours. Or if you average a 100W load throughout the day without the AC, 2.9 hours. That's figured with the conventional figure of 5 solar hours * 1200W panels, or 6kW collection per day.

Also worth nothing, most 18-20cu ft residential fridges consume 1.6-2.0kWh per day, depending on conditions. If you account for only a 50W base load, and 1.8kWh for a residential fridge, you collect enough solar to run your AC for under 2.5 hours in ideal conditions, not accounting for the inverter losses of the additional loads.

This system just doesn't seem like a serious attempt by Keystone to offer solar, in my opinion. Also, 1200W of panels will collect around 500AH per day on a 12V system. Doubling your batteries to 1020AH gives you a rainy day, but your panels alone will not be sufficient to fill them back up. What that buys you is the ability to decide when to run your generator, or wait until you get home to plug in if you're only vacationing.

If you go into it with the appropriate expectations, then I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

I just think saying it will "run the entire coach" is a big stretch as most people will buy it expecting to actually be able to run the AC, especially with all the marketing they push about soft starts and high efficiency units. That's going to leave many people sorely disappointed.

You wouldn't be able to run the AC all day, with off the shelf components, for $20K -- but you could get a lot closer than what they're providing you assuming you do the install yourself.

--

We rarely run our generator, by the way - even in cloudy or shaded conditions. 15 hours this year, including an hour each month for maintenance and a few hours for testing when we had some issues with it. With an adequately sized system, you can avoid them for the most part.

[kowbra]

So, I talked to the Super Solar designer today and learned a few more details; for those who may be interested in this solution...

-the AC units are not just a soft start added. They draw 9 amps when running, so much more efficient than normal roof top units
-they are now adding 300 watt panels for a total of 1200 watts (noted earlier)
-they will be upgrading the MPPT charge controllers to dual 40 amp models
-there is a panel to remove to add another 500ah of lithium; this could be other manufacturers as long as the charge profile matched
-they are working on a drop in package from Keystone with dual DragonFly GC3 batteries for those who want a turn key 510ah upgrade to a total of 1020ah
-the design goal was that this would serve to run the entire coach and in many conditions would fully charge the batteries each day
-for those who may think their usage may tax or exceed the design, they do have the upgrade path as above, but also are suggesting that a portable generator could be used. For example, in situations where a solar only solution would be taxed, such as cloud, forest, etc, then even a larger system may not be enough. Of course, one could just keep overbuilding with more panels and battery storage to account for worst case scenario... or carry a small 2000w generator to charge the batteries for those times

I do hope this information is helpful for those considering this solution.
We placed our order including the Super Solar Flex and will be trying it out later this year. I will update all once we are able to test it.

Brad

[time2roll]

kowbra wrote:
BTW, personally I don't get the idea of 10 or 20 year loans on "toys", but it sure does seem to be popular with many now.

Everyone's situation is different but it does amaze me also how many options are easily added when a loan is involved but then they go to buy a generator (or similar) after the purchase and it must be the absolute lowest cost regardless of noise or reliability etc. Often people debate products to save just a few $$ on the $50,000+ RV. Crazy.

[kowbra]

StirCrazy wrote:

kowbra wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00

I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points.

Steve

Sorry Steve, but not sure where you are getting your numbers. Batteries alone are worth more than that. I did the math a few posts ago, and to be clear in USD.
Now, as to what they probably pay? Anyone's guess and to me that's simply pure conjecture.

Perhaps they should have more options, but they really do have 3 options right now:
-solar prep; no charge, included with every new Montana and comes with solar connectors and solar prewiring along with 5 outlets wired to inverter location. Everything else can be DIY added
-Solar Flex package; about $1500USD. Comes with a single 300watt/24v panel, a Magnum 2000 watt inverter and associated bits, but no batteries. A nice starter system that can be built on
-Super Solar Flex package; the topic of this thread, and the only one that comes with included batteries...

If you have some DIY numbers you can jump in with that can create a similar package to the Super Solar Flex for $5000, I'm all ears... let us know, that would be a smokin deal!

Brad

if you DIYing your not buying off the shelf batteries, you can build two 12V 280 AH for about 560 plus 400 in shipping and 100 bucks for a BMS that does equalization.

I just paid 230 (including tax) for a 325 watt 24V panel, 300 for a Mppt controler that can handle 4 of thoes and more.

can get a 2000 watt pure sign wave inverter from Xantrex for about 1300.00 (not trying to run an ac so realy thats all you need unless your huge power hogs then i dont know what to say, asid from spend more money 🙂 )

I'll add 100 bucks for wires and such which takes us to 3600 bucks for a 1300 watt 24V panel set up feeding 560AH LiPhO4 bank with a 200 watt hardwired pure sign inverter with a 30 amp auto transfer built in.

if you wanted to save some money you could go with 4 gc batteries and have about 470 ah (235 usable) which is what I am running on my 5th right now, or you could spend more and buy LiPhO4 if you wernt comfterable with making them. in that cace you would spend 5 - 8K total depending on the capacity you want.

as for retail product pricing, you can generaly count on a 100% mark up at the retail store, specialty industries like boating, rv, automotive can and usaly have a higher markup than that, but just assuming it is the industy standard 100% than means if they sell it for 14 they pay 7 to the distrubitor who then would pay around 4 to the company who makes it. I used to run a computer business years and years ago and I used to just shake my heads at the multi levels of doubling of prices. if it is a dealer installed option it would probably cost the dealer about 1/2 after they take there labour out. if it is a factory option then it would be even less as they would be buying straight from the manufactuer.

either way it is what are you willing to pay for convenience and how handy are you. people will pay for this , exspecialy since you can roll it into the price of the rv and pay and extra 30 bucks a month on your financing.

Steve

Good summary, Steve,

I think we can agree it's not apples to apples to the Montana solution, but it does show what can be done for about $5-6k... even 3 or 4 years ago there is no way you could have built a solution as you've outlined for that price.

And, I think it's a great point that for some it will be an option because the cost per month is low...
BTW, personally I don't get the idea of 10 or 20 year loans on "toys", but it sure does seem to be popular with many now.

Thanks!
Brad

[StirCrazy]

kowbra wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00

I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points.

Steve

Sorry Steve, but not sure where you are getting your numbers. Batteries alone are worth more than that. I did the math a few posts ago, and to be clear in USD.
Now, as to what they probably pay? Anyone's guess and to me that's simply pure conjecture.

Perhaps they should have more options, but they really do have 3 options right now:
-solar prep; no charge, included with every new Montana and comes with solar connectors and solar prewiring along with 5 outlets wired to inverter location. Everything else can be DIY added
-Solar Flex package; about $1500USD. Comes with a single 300watt/24v panel, a Magnum 2000 watt inverter and associated bits, but no batteries. A nice starter system that can be built on
-Super Solar Flex package; the topic of this thread, and the only one that comes with included batteries...

If you have some DIY numbers you can jump in with that can create a similar package to the Super Solar Flex for $5000, I'm all ears... let us know, that would be a smokin deal!

Brad

if you DIYing your not buying off the shelf batteries, you can build two 12V 280 AH for about 560 plus 400 in shipping and 100 bucks for a BMS that does equalization.

I just paid 230 (including tax) for a 325 watt 24V panel, 300 for a Mppt controler that can handle 4 of thoes and more.

can get a 2000 watt pure sign wave inverter from Xantrex for about 1300.00 (not trying to run an ac so realy thats all you need unless your huge power hogs then i dont know what to say, asid from spend more money 🙂 )

I'll add 100 bucks for wires and such which takes us to 3600 bucks for a 1300 watt 24V panel set up feeding 560AH LiPhO4 bank with a 200 watt hardwired pure sign inverter with a 30 amp auto transfer built in.

if you wanted to save some money you could go with 4 gc batteries and have about 470 ah (235 usable) which is what I am running on my 5th right now, or you could spend more and buy LiPhO4 if you wernt comfterable with making them. in that cace you would spend 5 - 8K total depending on the capacity you want.

as for retail product pricing, you can generaly count on a 100% mark up at the retail store, specialty industries like boating, rv, automotive can and usaly have a higher markup than that, but just assuming it is the industy standard 100% than means if they sell it for 14 they pay 7 to the distrubitor who then would pay around 4 to the company who makes it. I used to run a computer business years and years ago and I used to just shake my heads at the multi levels of doubling of prices. if it is a dealer installed option it would probably cost the dealer about 1/2 after they take there labour out. if it is a factory option then it would be even less as they would be buying straight from the manufactuer.

either way it is what are you willing to pay for convenience and how handy are you. people will pay for this , exspecialy since you can roll it into the price of the rv and pay and extra 30 bucks a month on your financing.

Steve

[kowbra]

time2roll wrote:
Montana lost me when they mixed Magnum, Victron and no name on the controller.
Victron will all tie together and communicate better as a single brand.
What you are really paying for with Montana is the engineering to have everything well matched, placed and wired to be easily used by a non technical person. Yes for some an integrated OEM system will have great value.

The no name controllers, Jaboni, are a rebranded Victron... agree on the rest...

Brad

[time2roll]

Montana lost me when they mixed Magnum, Victron and no name on the controller.
Victron will all tie together and communicate better as a single brand.
What you are really paying for with Montana is the engineering to have everything well matched, placed and wired to be easily used by a non technical person. Yes for some an integrated OEM system will have great value.

[kowbra]

jshupe wrote:
Maybe... but I feel like they should market it for what it is. A system that will run most of the systems, most days, but clearly state what the limits are. People are going to buy it, not knowing what they are getting into.

I of at least a couple people in the fulltime community who do installs like mine either on the side, or as a full-time job now. Almost everybody serious about this seems to go Victron.

I agree, but when did any manufacturers marketing department send out realistic messaging? LOL
Instead, we don't get a "roof", we get a "Magnum Truss Roof" tada!!! As if it's any better, instead it's more likely worse than the "roof" we got on our older ones.
Likely the same thing here; can't be just any regular solar that can be bought elsewhere, it has be a "gamechanger" solar that can only be bought from them...

I do think you make good points to consider about the realistic limits of the solution.

Good to know about others getting into installs, and thanks for the recommendation on Victron; again I never saw much about them when I was doing our last rig a few years ago.

Brad

[n0arp]

Maybe... but I feel like they should market it for what it is. A system that will run most of the systems, most days, but clearly state what the limits are. People are going to buy it, not knowing what they are getting into.

I know of at least a couple people in the fulltime community who do installs like mine either on the side, or as a full-time job now. You could probably have it installed at a rally (well, not with COVID...) for fairly cheap. Almost everybody serious about this seems to go Victron. I've seen two Magnum installs at over 2kW of solar, and both were because they already owned the inverters.

[kowbra]

time2roll wrote:

jshupe wrote:
My initial setup cost a little under $17,500. I bought all items from the same vendor to get the best pricing via a project discount.

6x REC N-PEAK Series 325 Watt panels @ ~$200/ea
2x Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/35 solar charge controller @ ~$300/ea
2x Victron Quattro 48/3000/35-50/50 inverters @ ~$1750/ea
2x Victron Autotransformers @ ~$600/ea
2x Victron Orion-Tr 48/12-30A DC-DC converters @ ~$200/ea
1x Victron Venus GX @ ~$300
1x Victron BMV-712 @ ~$200
3x SimpliPhi 3.8kWh batteries @ ~$2600/ea

That's around $15,200 in major components, then the cables, boxes, breakers, etc brought it to a little over $17K..

I like this list far better than the OEM unit posted above.

Yes, a very nice system, and when adding labor is $5-6k more than the Montana package. It is more capable and I think it's more scalable than the Montana system as well. I think this would take a very experienced DIY, or even a very experienced professional. The problem with the pro is most have their favorite solutions -I know when I've done research I haven't found the pro that would install a provided kit like above... meaning they would have their favorite products, along with their markup. So, to be realistic and try to compare apples to apples (meaning a turn key installed system with a warranty for the products and installation), I suspect the difference in price could be much higher than $5-6k; as well it should be for what you are getting.

Where it gets hard is that we end up comparing apples to oranges, which it what this comparison kind of is. I still think there is a place for the Super Solar Flex package, and it's for the person who just wants a turn key solution. For that, I believe it is a reasonable solution at a reasonable price.

Now, if I had jshupe's obvious solar install skills, I think I would see it different...

Brad

[kowbra]

StirCrazy wrote:
if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00

I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points.

Steve

Sorry Steve, but not sure where you are getting your numbers. Batteries alone are worth more than that. I did the math a few posts ago, and to be clear in USD.
Now, as to what they probably pay? Anyone's guess and to me that's simply pure conjecture.

Perhaps they should have more options, but they really do have 3 options right now:
-solar prep; no charge, included with every new Montana and comes with solar connectors and solar prewiring along with 5 outlets wired to inverter location. Everything else can be DIY added
-Solar Flex package; about $1500USD. Comes with a single 300watt/24v panel, a Magnum 2000 watt inverter and associated bits, but no batteries. A nice starter system that can be built on
-Super Solar Flex package; the topic of this thread, and the only one that comes with included batteries...

If you have some DIY numbers you can jump in with that can create a similar package to the Super Solar Flex for $5000, I'm all ears... let us know, that would be a smokin deal!

Brad

[time2roll]

jshupe wrote:
My initial setup cost a little under $17,500. I bought all items from the same vendor to get the best pricing via a project discount.

6x REC N-PEAK Series 325 Watt panels @ ~$200/ea
2x Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/35 solar charge controller @ ~$300/ea
2x Victron Quattro 48/3000/35-50/50 inverters @ ~$1750/ea
2x Victron Autotransformers @ ~$600/ea
2x Victron Orion-Tr 48/12-30A DC-DC converters @ ~$200/ea
1x Victron Venus GX @ ~$300
1x Victron BMV-712 @ ~$200
3x SimpliPhi 3.8kWh batteries @ ~$2600/ea

That's around $15,200 in major components, then the cables, boxes, breakers, etc brought it to a little over $17K..

I like this list far better than the OEM unit posted above.