Spending too much $$ on batteries.

[realter]

The TC I purchased new in July 2009 had a Lifeline GPL27T battery. Lasted until Oct. 2011, when Rex told me I needed a new one. I was at factory getting a window put in my door. Last fall, October 2012, this battery would not hold a charge, so this spring I am forced to start looking at batteries again. Have put off using the camper until now because I can't afford to keep buying $300 batteries. Any suggestions??

[realter]

When I called Lifeline in CA yesterday, they politely told me where to go. Whatever was wrong with their 2 batteries, was all my fault. So I guess I will go with a Sears or Tractor Supply or something else. I not going to keep spending $323 every 2 years.

[full_mosey]

mkirsch wrote:

full_mosey wrote:
I call BS on the 'something' that was installed.

Battery isolators do exist and are common in truck campers.

Yes, but the problem turns out to be the camper battery drawing down, not the starter battery. It is possible that the tech diagnosed the problem as no alternator charge getting back to the camper and it is possible the he replaced the existing battery separator.

I also guessed that there were parasitic draws in the camper, and that would have nothing to do with a bad separator. Again, the starter battery was not draining so the batteries had to already be separated before the work.

HTH;
John

[Gdetrailer]

full_mosey writes “I am a little confused. I STFW and found a STANDBY AGM that has this in the specs.
Quote:

Can be used for more than 260 cycles at 100% discharge in
cycle service”

Yeah, confusing, isn’t it?

Honestly, I would be very leery of the manufacturer overhyping or stretching the truth on this in order to gain sales. That 100% may actually be 20% DOD, in other words that battery will give X amount of life cycles using 100% of typical DOD (20%) for this type of battery.

Granted I am guessing on this a bit but I would really doubt that it would indeed not only survive a discharge to 10.8V (100% DOD) but give 260 cycles of that abuse. I could however expect 260 cycles at 20% DOD..

I found a nice description of how life cycles can be affected by how deep of a discharge the battery gets.

HERE

“For a weekend camper, that is 260cycles/52weeks-per-year = 5 years of 100% discharge service.

Are you saying that if these AGMs are used at 30% discharge cycles that I would get less than 5 years of weekend service?”

That would be correct IF the DOD is 20% for 260 cycles, the problem is the actual info may be “masked” by marketing double speak as you have found. From my own searching on this AGMs can have a range of 5%-60% DOD but typically 20%-50% DOD.

Many people seem to think AGMs are indestructible and should be used for ALL applications.

My gut feeling is that is not true, AGMs CAN be destroyed.

While AGMs can be an improvement for SOME applications they are often NOT ALWAYS the best choice for EVERY application.

With any battery, max life cycles depend on many conditions, how much DOD, how long the battery sits with a partial charge, what temperature and even how hard the battery is recharged at can make a dramatic difference with the life of a battery.

I get the feeling that people consider flooded batteries to be a hassle because they need some maintenance like water or cleaning the terminals. Watering can be made simple by adding a automatic water system or you can get caps which “recover” most of the boiled off water.

Properly sized battery bank for usage and charging conditions along with three stage charging reduces the water usage considerably.

As far as cleaning the terminals, I rarely need to clean battery terminals, I use a product called No-Alox, it is a light “grease” which is specifically designed for preventing corrosion of electrical terminations. Use it for all of my vehicles and any electrical connector which is exposed to outdoors, works like a charm…

If you want max life, then shallow discharges quickly followed by a full recharge (full recharge will be MORE Ahr than what was drawn) will do this for you FOR ANY BATTERY TYPE.

For some folks, they just like saying they have AGMs, I really don’t care if folks think I am in the stone age using flooded batteries. I got a lot more Ahr per $$ than what I would have gotten with AGMs and to me that’s what counts.

For the OP of this thread, I noticed that you mentioned in another thread that you don’t camp without shore power or boondock.

To me in spite of what many other posters have posted, it would be a complete waste of YOUR money to buy another AGM battery, period.

Your converter will supply 12V for lights, fridge, furnace while plugged into shore power.

While traveling your vehicle will supply 12V for those devices in your TC as long as it is plugged into the truck. The draw back however is if you stop for too long you may draw your truck battery down or if a relay is installed your TC won’t have power when engine in not running.

So, you could simply disconnect and remove the battery, insulate the wires and call it good or as I mentioned before you can by a special battery box which has a top cover that seals and a vent connection which vents via a hose to the outside.

VENTED BATTERY BOX

Then you can get a low cost group 24 or group 27 flooded battery ($60-$70) which gives you some flexibility while you are traveling (40Ahr usable capacity). This allows you to stop anywhere for more than a hr or so and not worry about drawing your truck battery down.

You would still need to disconnect the battery during storage or since a group 24/27 battery is smaller take it with you and store at home periodically charging it.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

You have to watch these "claims" closely. Guys in plaid suits and fluorescent neckties frequently write them. If someone were to represent to me "260 100% discharges service life"...

I would then request documentation supporting the amount of CAPACITY of the accumulator after 260 such total discharges. It "might" surprise you...

[mkirsch]

full_mosey wrote:
I call BS on the 'something' that was installed.

Battery isolators do exist and are common in truck campers.

[full_mosey]

Gdetrailer wrote:

...
Basically in a nutshell, discharge AGMs BELOW 50% DOD and you WILL be replacing them (some AGMs are designed for STANDBY usage and will not tolerate being discharge more than 20% DOD). For BEST life (and capacity) AGMs should not be discharged below 20% DOD (that is considerable LESS capacity than FLA).

I am a little confused. I STFW and found a STANDBY AGM that has this in the specs.

Can be used for more than 260 cycles at 100% discharge in
cycle service

For a weekend camper, that is 260cycles/52weeks-per-year = 5 years of 100% discharge service.

Are you saying that if these AGMs are used at 30% discharge cycles that I would get less than 5 years of weekend service?

HTH;
John

[Gdetrailer]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Something I learned back when Tyrannosaurs walked aside the inland sea.

Batteries are a real pain...

Ahh.. Although if you chose wisely for your application then treat them better than your spouse and your first born they will reward you with a long and useful life.

Chose poorly and treat them like dirt and they will turn around and eat your bank account.... :B

So far my Sam's GC batts are now on camping season #6 and still going and going and going and going (Energizers, a tuff bunny)..

[full_mosey]

realter wrote:
The local Lifeline distributor quoted me $323 plus tax this morning, so hope to find a battery more reasonable. I would guess freight from CA is outrageous.

Find a Samsclub near you. They are selling Duracell labelled AGM which are actually Deka/East-Penn, made in PA.

I bet you will find a 100AH AGM for $170. If so, that's a very good price.

In OK, I can't get the Deka, we get Johnson Controls.

HTH;
John

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Something I learned back when Tyrannosaurs walked aside the inland sea.

Batteries are a real pain...

[Gdetrailer]

Reddog1 wrote:
I previously had a Lifeline AGM. When it went bad, I replaced it with a $200 Universal AGM Battery. That was with free shipping. I have had the Universal for a couple of years. I went to the Universal, only due to cost.

I ran numerous test on my Lifeline, discharging and charging. You can only fully discharge any battery so many times. I have not subjected my Universal battery to the same treatment.

The following are claims made by Lifeline:

LIFELINE RV BATTERY BENEFITS

User Safe

sealed construction

non-spillable

install in any position if properly supported.

submersible without damage

Maintenance free (no adding water or repairing corroded terminals)

Fastest recharge. (no current limitations with voltage regulated recharging)

Deep Cycle (thick positive plates to provide real deep cycle performance)

Outstanding cranking performance (aircraft cell construction lowers internal resistance)

Best charge retention (especially against flooded cell types)

Lowest discharge rates (Less that 3 percent per month unattended)


For me, not needing maintenance alone is worth the extra expense. With a good three stage charger the other points are a bonus. I think most of the claims are transferable to other AGM batteries. So far, they appear to be with the Universal Battery.

I do not think this is true; "... since you will be able to make use of lower cost flooded wet cells which are able to withstand deeper discharges than a AGM." I would have to see something that supports the statement.

Wayne

PBBATTERIES

And I quote..

“They (AGM) also have an excellent life expectancy as long as they are not over discharged (no more than 50-60%). AGM batteries can easily suffer premature failure if they are not charged correctly.”

TROJAN BATTERY TECH SUPPORT

And I quote...

“Deep-cycle lead-acid batteries generally fall into two distinct categories; flooded (FLA) and valve-regulated lead-acid (VRLA), with the VRLA type further subdivided into two types, Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) and Gel. These differences have evolved because no single design is suitable for all applications.

Here are some of the advantages of using deep-cycle flooded batteries:
• Lower cost than deep-cycle VRLA batteries.
• Longer deep cycle life than deep-cycle VRLA batteries.
• Can be maintained simply by addition of distilled water.
• High discharge rate capability.
• Perform better in hot climates. (>90 degrees F)
• More available worldwide.
• Perform better then deep-cycle VRLA batteries when regularly in a partial state of charge.
• Long, proven history of use.

Some of the drawbacks of using deep-cycle flooded batteries are:
• Periodic maintenance by adding distilled water is required.
• Can only be used in an upright position.
• Produce gas (oxygen and hydrogen) when charged.
• May emit acid spray if overcharged abusively.
• Require ventilation.
• Higher self-discharge rate than deep-cycle VRLA batteries.
• Cannot be shipped by air.
• Cannot be used in the immediate vicinity of electrical equipment or anything highly flammable.

Here are some of the advantages of using deep-cycle AGM batteries:
• Less expensive than deep-cycle Gel batteries.
• Wider temperature range than deep-cycle Gel or FLA batteries.
• Slowest self-discharge rate of FLA, AGM and Gel batteries.
• Best shock/vibration resistance of FLA, AGM and Gel batteries.
• Best for high power applications of FLA, AGM and Gel batteries.
Here are some of the disadvantage of using deep-cycle AGM batteries:
• Don't perform as well as deep-cycle FLA or Gel batteries for systems that require regular deep discharge. (i.e. 80% DOD)
• Do not perform as well as deep-cycle Gel batteries in low power applications.”

(I will add, AGM are more expensive than FLA and AGMs have less capacity compared to FLA for a given size)

“If the duty cycle involves deep discharge cycling a Gel type may be preferred over an AGM type, however many renewable energy systems are sized to 20% to 50% depth of discharge so an AGM battery would suffice. Where the batteries are accessible for maintenance and maintenance costs are reasonable, flooded batteries will have several advantages over their VRLA counterparts.”

Basically in a nutshell, discharge AGMs BELOW 50% DOD and you WILL be replacing them (some AGMs are designed for STANDBY usage and will not tolerate being discharge more than 20% DOD). For BEST life (and capacity) AGMs should not be discharged below 20% DOD (that is considerable LESS capacity than FLA).

Deep Cycle flooded (like Golf cart batts) CAN be discharged to 80% DOD without damage although it may reduce capacity and life cycles a bit (for BEST life and capacity FLA should not be discharged below 50% DOD).

Discharge AGMs to 80% DOD and you will have a expensive, big, heavy doorstop.

If you want the most “bang for the buck” it is still hard to beat FLA batts such as Golf cart batts for price, capacity and abuse.

Not long ago I compared some GC batts at Sams club. They had standard flooded GC batts and AGM version GC batts side by side.

The AGM version cost $20 MORE and had 20% LESS capacity than the flooded.

For myself, I don't "need" a sealed battery, I don't "need" a spill proof battery. No, I simply need a reliable battery which packs the most Ahr capacity for the $$, flooded GC batts fill that need for me.

As noted some manufacturers of AGMs have changed marketing strategy which INFLATES the perceived capacity by using a 100Ahr rate instead of the standard of 20Ahr rate… (kind of deceptive isn't it?)

[realter]

The local Lifeline distributor quoted me $323 plus tax this morning, so hope to find a battery more reasonable. I would guess freight from CA is outrageous.

[full_mosey]

Huntindog wrote:

The Trojans are not the batteries in question This is the one.Lifeline group 27

a little better than the typical 12 volt group 27, but nothing to get excited about.

Lifeline grp 27 and 31 are available online for $290 and $300.

Discount clubs are now selling a grp 31 100AH AGM for $170. That is my current AGM replacement choice. You can get 200AH for $40 more than a 100AH Lifeline. I hope this downward price trend continues.

HTH;
John

[realter]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
THE NEW BREED OF "APPLICATIONS ENGINEER"

On 6/29, BFL asked me who this Rex guy is who is taking all my money. I believe this is his picture:B

[Huntindog]

HiTech wrote:

Reddog1 wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:
... That group 27 has around 90 if you are lucky. (That's total) no matter what it says on it (20 hour rate)...

What resources do you base this on?

Trojan lists 2 group 27's. The 20 hour rates are 105 and 115 amp hours.

Trojan group 27 battery 20 hour amp hour ratings

Their 117 Ah 100 hour rate battery is still 105 at the 20 hour rate.

Jim

The Trojans are not the batteries in question This is the one.Lifeline group 27

a little better than the typical 12 volt group 27, but nothing to get excited about.