To Honda 2200i, or Stick with Honda 2000i?

[3_tons]

Lately, I’ve been pondering a bit over Honda’s new 2200i generator, and wondering if it might be able to run my air conditioner while in the Eco mode (ALL other appliances and converter off), though Eco mode is not a viable option on my Honda 2000i...A little extra wattage ‘headroom’ would be appreciated as well - but what to do??

So I just ran some test with the Honda 2000i and the Coleman 11k btu (Mach I p.s.) both having been well warmed up for 30 minutes in advance..Outside temp was about 87df, Nevada elevation is 4,800’...

Using a Kill-a-watt meter, heres the results with both fan and compressor running:

(Note that fan was set on LO - during testing, fan amps alone remained a consistant 2.0 amps)

Volts = 124
Hz = 60
Amps = 11.6 (2.0a for fan only)
Watts = 1160

Coleman rates the 11k btu Mach 1 p.s. compressor ‘running amps’ (not starting amps) at 6.7 amps, and at 9.0 total amps with fan on LOW (9.6 amps, fan on HI)...They also rate the watts at between 1048w (@ 95df) to 1307w (@ 115df).

Honda 2000i had no problem running the air unit with Eco set to the OFF position, but could not negotiate a start when in Eco mode. My present Honda is rated at 13.3 amps (@ 1,600w), while newer Honda 2200i is rated at 15.0 amps (@ 1,800w), compared to the 2000i, roughly a 9% power increase when at 1,800w continuous output...

To determine if the Eco mode was functioning properly, I tried again, but using small Porter-Cable pancake compressor (rated at 10amps - I assume running amps), and a DeWalt 12” chop saw (rated at 15amps), and the Honda 2000i was able to start each while rapidly adjusting to the loads...Same was true when trying a 3.5 gal Rigid shop vac...

Based on this, I believe that the generator and the Eco mode are functioning quite properly, but that the Coleman’s 11k btu ac compressor (concurrent with 2.0 ‘actual’ amp fan) is a severely inductive load that overwhelms (pushes back on...) the 2000i’s Eco mode feature...It also looks like I’m drawing more amps (@ 11.5a) than what the Coleman specs claim (@9.0a on LO fan), though the watts seem to be within a fairly acceptable range...I believe that the nature of the load with present Honda provides little if any ‘headroom’ especially if elevation and ambient temps were to increase...

Running in Eco mode would be nice, but not too sure that the newer 2200i would make that possible, yet a bit of extra headroom would be a worthy improvement...

3 tons

[3_tons]

FWIW, I just checked the Kill-a-watt meter specs and it does read both voltage and current in RMS.

3 tons

[3_tons]

Ok, I’m back after having tried the new Honda 2200i...With ambient temps at about 86df (inside RV garage) and at 4,800’ elevation, and after warming up the new 2200i and the air cond for about 30 min the results ‘while on Eco’ were the same as with the 2000i - the 11.5k btu Coleman mach 1 p.s. still requires the assist of the pass-thru PS inverter (for a few brief seconds) to get up and rolling, but after that works fine on Eco...All other appliances and converter were set to OFF...

As I previously stated, Coleman list the running amps (with blower) at 9.0@95df and 9.6@115df, yet my Kill-A-Watt meter is showing a steady 11.6 running amps with blower on LO (likely more in the vicinity of their 13k btu model I would think?)...Since over the last 9 years the AC really hasn’t seen a whole lot of use, I’m at a loss to know why the running amps are about 2.6a higher than spec’ed, but the air unit otherwise seems to work just fine...Nor do I know for sure if the Kill-a-Watt meter reads in a possibly more accurate RMS, though indications are (per Eco mode testing) that the amperage is actually higher than Coleman’s specs...

Either way, when on Eco the inverter saves the day (upon compressor starts...) and hopefully the extra 200w of headroom will be appreciated during desert camping. I’ll know more after this weekend’s BLM desert riding RZR excursion...!!

3 tons

[ktmrfs]

wa8yxm wrote:
I so not think ECO mode is going to kick start all but the smallest A/C's. Just not enough Kick. Does not matter if old or new. But two of 'em in full on can do it. Oen might on a small A/C.

I will disagree. with the micro air easy start and my single honda 2000 or 2200 in eco mode, turning on the Coleman Mach III 13.5K BTU ac causes them to smoothly ramp up from eco mode to running rpm without hesitation, hunting or anything other than a nice smooth ramp. does that every time, even at very high altitude. about a 1-2 second smooth ramp in rpm. In fact it is much smoother than two parallel honda 2000's in eco mode.

[wa8yxm]

I so not think ECO mode is going to kick start all but the smallest A/C's. Just not enough Kick. Does not matter if old or new. But two of 'em in full on can do it. Oen might on a small A/C.

[3_tons]

ktmrfs wrote:
A bit more info on the micro air easy start. I spoke with a tech resource at micro air about the fact that on my honda 2000 that the easy start detects overload before the honda actually goes into overload.

Paraphrasing micro air here is a summary.

his answer is yes, it most likely will. the easy start monitors not just voltage but also the motor running rpm and detects the rpm dropping. (now adding my EE background to this, when an inductive motor drops RPM, input current goes UP, NOT DOWN. it is an inductive load and the motor also produces what is refered to as back emf) when it detects motor rpm drop over some limit it will turn off the AC for 5 minutes then start up again.

He also mentioned one advantage to this scheme. Since the generator does not go into overload itself, no need to restart or reset the generator. He also mentioned that suppose the AC is running fine, and DW decides to turn on the microwave or plug in a hair dryer. the easy start detects the overload fast enough to shut the AC off before the generator overload, microwave comes on, or DW gets her hair dry, 5 minutes later the easy start tries to start up, if the load is gone, it's on it's happy way AC is running again.

IMHO they have done a great job designing this system.

BTW they are updating the manuals and site data to highlight more of how it operates.

And as another side note, monitoring the honda (and likely other inverter generators) the voltage and current waveforms become not very sinusoidal with inductive loads. that means a voltage reading with a non RMS voltmeter is not very accurate, and the drive to the inductive load is much different than what they are designed for, a 60 HZ sine wave, not a distorted waveform with harmonics.

Thanks for your sage input !...Though the Hyper Engineering’s Sure-Start and the Micro-air’s Easy-Start are of different manufacture, the Sure-Start also times-out the air cond if the campers load increases - sounds like the are very similar devices...I previously had tried to find out what is behind their ‘black box’ technology, but they wouldn’t budge an inch - strictly proprietary I was told - lol !!

Thanks too for the follow-up on inductive type loads - !...FWIW, my (supposed) high-end, pure sine-wave inverter displays the same output waveform affect you’ve mentioned - not exactly as sinusoidal as one might expect, eh!!

I will be getting the Honda 2200i on Wednesday and will report back the results!

3 tons

[ktmrfs]

A bit more info on the micro air easy start. I spoke with a tech resource at micro air about the fact that on my honda 2000 that the easy start detects overload before the honda actually goes into overload.

Paraphrasing micro air here is a summary.

his answer is yes, it most likely will. the easy start monitors not just voltage but also the motor running rpm and detects the rpm dropping. (now adding my EE background to this, when an inductive motor drops RPM, input current goes UP, NOT DOWN. it is an inductive load and the motor also produces what is refered to as back emf) when it detects motor rpm drop over some limit it will turn off the AC for 5 minutes then start up again.

so as voltage goes down, current goes up, which the additional load causes voltage to drop more, downward spiral if the generator can't get to a spot where it can supply the current w/o additional voltage drop.

Now for more of my comments based on our conversation.,

Inductive motors can get very hot if run at low voltage as well. So, for operation on a generator, IMHO they have done a great service to protect the motor from constant overheating which reduces life as well.

Some will say, well it's an inductive AC motor it runs at constant 3450 or 1725 etc based on 60Hz line or it quits. Well, that's the nominal rpm, it will drop rpm on heavy load before it finally gives up and come to a fast stall.

He also mentioned one advantage to this scheme. Since the generator does not go into overload itself, no need to restart or reset the generator. He also mentioned that suppose the AC is running fine, and DW decides to turn on the microwave or plug in a hair dryer. the easy start detects the overload fast enough to shut the AC off before the generator overload, microwave comes on, or DW gets her hair dry, 5 minutes later the easy start tries to start up, if the load is gone, it's on it's happy way AC is running again.

IMHO they have done a great job designing this system.

BTW they are updating the manuals and site data to highlight more of how it operates.

And as another side note, monitoring the honda (and likely other inverter generators) the voltage and current waveforms become not very sinusoidal with inductive loads. that means a voltage reading with a non RMS voltmeter is not very accurate, and the drive to the inductive load is much different than what they are designed for, a 60 HZ sine wave, not a distorted waveform with harmonics.

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

3 tons wrote:
Thanks for the real-world operating data!...I too have installed the Easy-start, and find it interesting that your air cond starts up fine when on Eco using the 2000i or the 2200i ...

ktmrfs's Easy Start is a Micro-Air, yours apparently is by Hyper Engineering, different product with perhaps different characteristics.

Yes thats very possible...Actually, this afternoon the genny on Eco was able to start the air cond a ‘few times’ (hit and miss..) and other times with assist from the inverter, but we’re at 4,800’ elevation and the temp was about 84df with camper in my shaded enclosed garage, and the air cond had not yet been thoroughly warmed up... This result tells me that with a large load, this genny when on Eco is running right about at it’s absolute ragged edge....It is capable of starting the air unit (in Eco) IF the stars are in their proper alignment - lol

3 tons

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
Thanks for the real-world operating data!...I too have installed the Easy-start, and find it interesting that your air cond starts up fine when on Eco using the 2000i or the 2200i ...

ktmrfs's Easy Start is a Micro-Air, yours apparently is by Hyper Engineering, different product with perhaps different characteristics.

[3_tons]

ktmrfs wrote:
I'll add a bit of real world experience on the 2000 vs. 2200. First I have installed the micro air easy start on my coleman. works great. Now with the honda 2000 last year at 4000ft altitude mid 90's it would run the AC for about 10 minutes before overload. At sea level fine.
In both conditions AC starts fine with generator in ECO mode.

This last weekend I tried my honda 2200. sold the 2000 to my son. Again camping at 4000ft, mid 90's fired up the 2200, AC ran continously for hour or more no problem. Then though what margin do I have. turned the fridge to run on AC, and fridge at this temp pretty much runs continously. So I added about another 300W load. EMS showed the total load went up by about 3A, to 15. Now the EMS current reading is NOT very accurate, but 15A does come close to the AC load + fridge.

Ran the AC and fridge for another hour or so no issues. Went out and turned the 2200 off ECO to see what rpm increase I could hear. Yes, RPM did go up, so even at this the 2200 was not maxed out for rpm.

So, early conclusion based on ONE test ONLY is that the 2200 with the extra 200VA continous AND a 25% larger engine is addressing the altitude issue generators have.

Will take a few more trips to see if it completely solved the altitude problem.

Thanks for the real-world operating data!...I too have installed the Easy-start, and find it interesting that your air cond starts up fine when on Eco using the 2000i or the 2200i ...

Coleman rates my 11k btu unit running amps (with fan) at 9.0a at 95df and 9.6a at 115df, yet after 30+ minutes of run time, I measure it (using kill-a-watt device) to be 11.6a at about 85df with fan on low, so when on Eco, maybe this is why the inverter has to assist with each compressor start (??)...

As I’ve previously mentioned, we seldom used the air cond so its not clear to me why the running amps measure so high...I am able to see (via Xantrex LinkLite shunt meter) that when the inverter provides the start boost to resolve the compressors initial surge, the battery amp draw increases to about 40amps or so (at 12v), which at 120 v would equate to about 10 times that amount for about 1.5 seconds before handing the now running load back to the genny...

Another mystery, but based on your guidance I’ll soon be pulling the trigger on the 2200.

Thank You,

3 tons

[ktmrfs]

I'll add a bit of real world experience on the 2000 vs. 2200. First I have installed the micro air easy start on my coleman. works great. Now with the honda 2000 last year at 4000ft altitude mid 90's it would run the AC for about 10 minutes before overload. At sea level fine.
In both conditions AC starts fine with generator in ECO mode.

This last weekend I tried my honda 2200. sold the 2000 to my son. Again camping at 4000ft, mid 90's fired up the 2200, AC ran continously for hour or more no problem. Then though what margin do I have. turned the fridge to run on AC, and fridge at this temp pretty much runs continously. So I added about another 300W load. EMS showed the total load went up by about 3A, to 15. Now the EMS current reading is NOT very accurate, but 15A does come close to the AC load + fridge.

Ran the AC and fridge for another hour or so no issues. Went out and turned the 2200 off ECO to see what rpm increase I could hear. Yes, RPM did go up, so even at this the 2200 was not maxed out for rpm.

So, early conclusion based on ONE test ONLY is that the 2200 with the extra 200VA continous AND a 25% larger engine is addressing the altitude issue generators have.

Will take a few more trips to see if it completely solved the altitude problem.

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

3 tons wrote:
So now that this nagging chapter is finally closed, I’m still on the fence about a new Honda 2200i (my original solution to the problem...)... My inclination is still to go for it simply due to the extra headroom it will provide at the higher desert elevations and 100df temps...

No question the EU2200i with it's noticeably larger 121 cc engine will handle higher elevations and 100F temps more easily than will an EU2000i with it's smaller 98 cc engine. Whether the extra cost involved is worth it only you can answer. I know if I was in the market for one of these gensets I'd definitely opt for the larger EU2200i even though Honda here in Canada is now selling off remaining EU2000i genset stock at reduced prices.

Good points Sir, Note too that I Thank You for your keen interest and kindly assistance - it’s what makes this forum’s community outstanding!!

3 tons

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
So now that this nagging chapter is finally closed, I’m still on the fence about a new Honda 2200i (my original solution to the problem...)... My inclination is still to go for it simply due to the extra headroom it will provide at the higher desert elevations and 100df temps...

No question the EU2200i with it's noticeably larger 121 cc engine will handle higher elevations and 100F temps more easily than will an EU2000i with it's smaller 98 cc engine. Whether the extra cost involved is worth it only you can answer. I know if I was in the market for one of these gensets I'd definitely opt for the larger EU2200i even though Honda here in Canada is now selling off remaining EU2000i genset stock at reduced prices.

[3_tons]

FINALLY, I stumbled upon the ‘not-so-apparant’ fault, but the fix ended up to be quite simple...I only wish my thinking would have been more comprehensive, but since I don’t often use the genny (used only to power air only during ‘extended’ periods - all else is handled via voltage sensing, pass-thru inverter), except for (say beyond say 30 min) use of rooftop 11k btu air cond - otherwise (i.e. for short term brief sandwich stops) the air cond. too can run off this pass-thru inverter...

This entire system operates passively, and senses either voltage source (genny or Shore), thus my abject ineptitude at figuring all this out earlier - passive means idiot proof, so I lost my ability to recall - lol !!

The apparant problem was that sometime in the past year or so the previous inverter programming (at the panel - really a computer interface) got changed or somehow way off spec, which led to my initial post regarding why the generators Eco mode was not working properly...Turns out that the Eco mode works perfectly - now (or actually, once again...) even with the air conditioner
starting up and running...In my final frustration, I tried hard booting the inverter, then did a factory restore of its operating parameters to see if by chance this might be the answer, and what happened next was that I could read the 125v voltage output that was provided by the Honda 2000i !!

So with now with voltage in the system, next I attempted the very same Eco mode test run again, and amazingly everything worked exactly perfectly as was before - upon initial compressor start the inverter briefly kicked in (took load away from genny) to resolve the uber high amount of surge, then after about 2-3 sec max handed the entire ‘now up and running’ load back to a very happy, just running above idling speed generator!!

When in Eco mode this load swapping strategy serves as a sorta virtual generator assist, and I’m once again a very, very happy camper!!...

So now that this nagging chapter is finally closed, I’m still on the fence about a new Honda 2200i (my original solution to the problem...)... My inclination is still to go for it simply due to the extra headroom it will provide at the higher desert elevations and 100df temps... My sincere appreciation for all your great ideas - really got me a thinking Bigly!!

Best Regards,

3 tons - now to put the torn apart camper back together again - lol

[SoundGuy]

Your EU2000i doesn't bond or "unbond", it's simply wired with a floating neutral output as most small inverter gensets of this type are wired. To bond it simply make up a bonding plug, plug it into one of your genset's output receptacles, and the genset will be bonded.