To Honda 2200i, or Stick with Honda 2000i?

[3_tons]

Lately, I’ve been pondering a bit over Honda’s new 2200i generator, and wondering if it might be able to run my air conditioner while in the Eco mode (ALL other appliances and converter off), though Eco mode is not a viable option on my Honda 2000i...A little extra wattage ‘headroom’ would be appreciated as well - but what to do??

So I just ran some test with the Honda 2000i and the Coleman 11k btu (Mach I p.s.) both having been well warmed up for 30 minutes in advance..Outside temp was about 87df, Nevada elevation is 4,800’...

Using a Kill-a-watt meter, heres the results with both fan and compressor running:

(Note that fan was set on LO - during testing, fan amps alone remained a consistant 2.0 amps)

Volts = 124
Hz = 60
Amps = 11.6 (2.0a for fan only)
Watts = 1160

Coleman rates the 11k btu Mach 1 p.s. compressor ‘running amps’ (not starting amps) at 6.7 amps, and at 9.0 total amps with fan on LOW (9.6 amps, fan on HI)...They also rate the watts at between 1048w (@ 95df) to 1307w (@ 115df).

Honda 2000i had no problem running the air unit with Eco set to the OFF position, but could not negotiate a start when in Eco mode. My present Honda is rated at 13.3 amps (@ 1,600w), while newer Honda 2200i is rated at 15.0 amps (@ 1,800w), compared to the 2000i, roughly a 9% power increase when at 1,800w continuous output...

To determine if the Eco mode was functioning properly, I tried again, but using small Porter-Cable pancake compressor (rated at 10amps - I assume running amps), and a DeWalt 12” chop saw (rated at 15amps), and the Honda 2000i was able to start each while rapidly adjusting to the loads...Same was true when trying a 3.5 gal Rigid shop vac...

Based on this, I believe that the generator and the Eco mode are functioning quite properly, but that the Coleman’s 11k btu ac compressor (concurrent with 2.0 ‘actual’ amp fan) is a severely inductive load that overwhelms (pushes back on...) the 2000i’s Eco mode feature...It also looks like I’m drawing more amps (@ 11.5a) than what the Coleman specs claim (@9.0a on LO fan), though the watts seem to be within a fairly acceptable range...I believe that the nature of the load with present Honda provides little if any ‘headroom’ especially if elevation and ambient temps were to increase...

Running in Eco mode would be nice, but not too sure that the newer 2200i would make that possible, yet a bit of extra headroom would be a worthy improvement...

3 tons

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

3 tons wrote:
When generator is running, theres 125v, but only up to the inverter - the inverter for some reason does not ‘recognize’ the gennys output, so will not pass it thru to the campers circuits... Sounds like maybe a bad ATS inside the inverter...

More likely the ATS and / or inverter isn't happy with your EU2000i's floating neutral output. Have you tried bonding the genset's output?

Thx, So if I have you right you are referring to the fact that gennys (passive) floating neutral may not be bonding when not on shore power, correct??...if so, I’m not quite sure of a way around this...

Upon edit (thinking through this a bit more....), it would seem that the genny’s floating neutral would passively ‘un-bond’ whenever it sensed Shore Power, and would again re-bond’ otherwise. Inverter also has a floating neutral, but I fairly sure that it has been disabled (utilizing its disable option) at time of install...

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
When generator is running, theres 125v, but only up to the inverter - the inverter for some reason does not ‘recognize’ the gennys output, so will not pass it thru to the campers circuits... Sounds like maybe a bad ATS inside the inverter...

More likely the ATS and / or inverter isn't happy with your EU2000i's floating neutral output. Have you tried bonding the genset's output?

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

3 tons wrote:
Update, I believe I’ve found a problem at the SP / generator ATS switch in basement - ATS lets shore power pass thru fine, but (per measurement) generator power is at about only 63v even though measured at generator’s output at 125v....

If you're not using a bonding plug on your EU2000i's output your ATS and / or SP may not be dealing with the genset's floating neutral output. Out of curiosity, what SP?

SP meant shore power...Well, turns out that basement ATS is fine, and outputting 125v all the way up to the pass-thru inverter charger WHEN ON SHOREPOWER Only (generator isolated), thus, all the campers circuits are active - but NOT when the genny is running (with shore power isolated)!!....

When generator is running, theres 125v, but only up to the inverter - either the inverter for some reason does not ‘recognize’ the gennys output, or the inverter’s built-in ATS will not pass it thru to the campers circuits... Sounds like maybe a bad ATS inside the inverter...

Seems like a quasi-sudden failure, because up to yesterday the inverter would pass thru the generator’s output to the camper...

Other than that, the inverter still inverts, and will recognize shore power, but as of today, not genny power - dang!!

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
Update, I believe I’ve found a problem at the SP / generator ATS switch in basement - ATS lets shore power pass thru fine, but (per measurement) generator power is at about only 63v even though measured at generator’s output at 125v....

If you're not using a bonding plug on your EU2000i's output your ATS and / or SP may not be dealing with the genset's floating neutral output. Out of curiosity, what SP?

[3_tons]

Update, I believe I’ve found a problem at the SP / generator ATS switch in basement - ATS lets shore power pass thru fine, but (per measurement) generator power is at about only 63v even though measured at generator’s output at 125v....This could be the sum total of the problem, or maybe just a contribuiting factor - hopefully, the former!....more testing reqd...

3 tons

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
... but other variables such as elevation, ambient temps, length of run times (say beyond 30 min...) are seldom mentioned or even overlooked...

Not by me. 😉 I've owned 2 different EU2000i gensets and used each to run different makes of 13,500 BTU A/Cs. I found that replacing the dino oil in each with synthetic Mobil 1 really helped the engine deal with the sudden load of A/C compressor start up, so much so that either would successfully start the A/C even with the genset running in ECO mode. That was here in S Ontario where we're not much above sea level and as long as ambient temps were no higher than the mid 80s. However, once temps rose into the 90s there was just no chance either genset could deal with the start up load. That was long before I had even heard of the Micro-Air Easy Start but I suspect that had I added one to the A/C that would have allowed the EU2000i to deal with that sudden start up load. Using an EU2200i instead of an EU2000i would further improve chances of this genset continuing to power an A/C in less than ideal conditions.

[3_tons]

Following the principle of Occum’s Razor, as of yet I have no demonstrable reason to believe the soft-start is not functioning as intended - at this point, spending another $250 to do an R&R to find out does not well agree with me - My present goal is merely to optimize ‘the system’ so that it might run while on Eco...Just thinking aloud...

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

3 tons wrote:
This is the unit I have, and all works well when genny is not in Eco mode:

http://hypereng.com

Others who have installed the Micro-Air Easy Start have reported here on the forums that their Honda EU2000i will handle the start up load of a 13,500 BTU A/C even when running in ECO mode, which is obviously an advantage since the genset runs much more quietly in ECO mode. If yours doesn't that would suggest the Micro-Air might have been a better choice than the Hyper Engineering version.

True, and no doubt yet another possibility (or variable), but other variables such as elevation, ambient temps, length of run times (say beyond 30 min...) are seldom mentioned or even overlooked...

[SoundGuy]

3 tons wrote:
This is the unit I have, and all works well when genny is not in Eco mode:

http://hypereng.com

Others who have installed the Micro-Air Easy Start have reported here on the forums that their Honda EU2000i will handle the start up load of a 13,500 BTU A/C even when running in ECO mode, which is obviously an advantage since the genset runs much more quietly in ECO mode. If yours doesn't that would suggest the Micro-Air might have been a better choice than the Hyper Engineering version.

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

monkey44 wrote:
With the 2200i, does the Honda still need the "easy-start" item, or will it run the 13.5 AC unit stock from factory?

The Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit does nothing for you once the A/C compressor has spun up to speed ... it's strictly intended to significantly reduce initial compressor start up current demand, allowing a 2K genset like the EU2000i to not stumble, go into overload, and shut down it's inverter output. The EU2000i is rated for maximum continuous load of 13.3 amps @ 120 vac, the EU2200i 15 amps @ 120 vac, so obviously the larger version will better handle the load of a running A/C, particularly when elevation rises above sea level and ambient temperatures are higher, both of which will degrade the performance of any generator.

Agreed, the soft start is installed in lieu of the ‘start’ cap.... No modification to the ‘run’ cap is necessary....It may in fact be doing its intended job, thus the issue (wanting to run 11k btu ac in the Eco mode) may simply be due to the genny size vs load requirement...

At this point I’m attempting to make a go of it via reprogramming the parameters of the pass-thru inverter-charger, so that it kicks in early to start the compressor, then quickly disconnects (via ATS) once the LRA is overcome - though I’m not sure this will be successful... PS Inverter is pretty sophisticated in this way...I’m kinda thinking that although the Honda 2000i worked well running our previous campers 9500k btu air (and the present campers 11k btu ac when NOT on Eco), that the genny may just be a bit undersized to do so on Eco....More testing required!!

[3_tons]

SoundGuy wrote:

SoundGuy wrote:
Personally I'd first invest in a Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit for the A/C and see how your current EU2000i does.

3 tons wrote:
Oops, I failed to mention that I did install the Easy Start (by Hyper Energy) last year but with little apparant positive result...

That would certainly raise concern, have you spoken to Hyper Engineering to ask why? The unit I'm referring to is a different unit, the Micro-Air East Start Soft Starter Kit which quite a few here on the forums have installed on their own A/C units, most larger than yours, and have reported great success, with an EU2000i easily starting their A/Cs.

This is the unit I have, and all works well when genny is not in Eco mode:

http://hypereng.com

[GordonThree]

why is eco mode so important when running a heavy load like a compressor?

[SoundGuy]

monkey44 wrote:
With the 2200i, does the Honda still need the "easy-start" item, or will it run the 13.5 AC unit stock from factory?

The Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit does nothing for you once the A/C compressor has spun up to speed ... it's strictly intended to significantly reduce initial compressor start up current demand, allowing a 2K genset like the EU2000i to not stumble, go into overload, and shut down it's inverter output. The EU2000i is rated for maximum continuous load of 13.3 amps @ 120 vac, the EU2200i 15 amps @ 120 vac, so obviously the larger version will better handle the load of a running A/C, particularly when elevation rises above sea level and ambient temperatures are higher, both of which will degrade the performance of any generator.

[SoundGuy]

SoundGuy wrote:
Personally I'd first invest in a Micro-Air Easy Start Soft Starter Kit for the A/C and see how your current EU2000i does.

3 tons wrote:
Oops, I failed to mention that I did install the Easy Start (by Hyper Energy) last year but with little apparant positive result...

That would certainly raise concern, have you spoken to Hyper Engineering to ask why? The unit I'm referring to is a different unit, the Micro-Air East Start Soft Starter Kit which quite a few here on the forums have installed on their own A/C units, most larger than yours, and have reported great success, with an EU2000i easily starting their A/Cs.

[pnichols]

By the way, after one installs the Easy Start mod to their 13.5K A/C so that maybe a Honda 2000i will run it, then - for absolute ease in generator lifting/moving, for a better RV storage fit in two smaller places when a larger single place isn't available, and for more power: Use two Honda 1000i generators in parallel instead of a single 2000i generator. A Honda 2000i generator is rated for a running power of 1600 watts. Two Honda 1000i generators in parallel are rated for a running power of 1800 watts.