Why can't I get a TRUE Deep cycle battery anymore?

[pjw73nh]

As the title says. Why can't I get a true deep cycle battery any more? I suppose I could get a $250+ high end one (Optima/Trojan etc), but I am looking in the sub $150 range. I use my trailer 6 times a year and pay close attention to battery maintenance. I consider them disposable after 3-4 years.

I used to be able to get them at Walmart/Sams/Autozone etc... Now all they offer is is deep cycle RV/Marine batteries.

I don't need the starting power or vibration resistance of a marine battery. I want a reasonably priced TRUE DEEP CYCLE NON MARINE battery.

[landyacht318]

When i firt got my Northtar, I was only using it as a starting battery, and could not get its resting voltage above 13v, as Northstar states is the full charged OCV.

After one deep cycle and a recharge to full at high amperage it rested at 13.06v forever after when fully charged, and had that extra insane amount of engine cranking grunt which I found shocking.

to get the most from thesse batteries, My experience is a deep cycle and high amp recharge to full to break them in to full potential, and then if deeply cycled again, it really appreciates the high amp recharge. They say 14.46 Vabs at 77F. I use 14.7v and hold it until amps taper to 0.4 or less.

Low and slow solar only recharges, are not so good for these. They need the high amp recharge from a well depleted state every so many cycles, in my experience.

[RambleOnNW]

T18skyguy wrote:

landyacht318 wrote:

T18skyguy wrote:
Batteries plus has a battery with a guarantee of 5 years. It is both a starting battery and a deep cycle. The man who developed the original Optima sold the company, and started a new one. Sorry I can't remember the name of the battery, but seems pretty awesome and has brass post's. It's advertised as 100% lead(so cheaper ones are not all lead?) Anyway, it's 300 bucks. Buy online and pick up in the store is 270 bucks. The name of the battery starts with an x is as much as I remember.

The X2 power battery fropm B+ is a Northstar battery.

The rumor I heard about the founding was that some guys left Enersys/ Odyssey battery to start their own battery company.

No Idea if it is true or not, but many Odyssey and Northstar batteries share the same specs, and both claim thin plate pure lead.

I am getting excellent service from a group 27 northstar AGM. In november it turns 4 years old and it has about ~615 deep cycle on it. I do use it for both engine and house. I used to have a separate house battery but once I saw I could depleted 65Ah of its 90AH capacity and it still easily started my engine, I gave up on the idea shoehorning a trojan T-1275 into my engine compartment.

The northstar AGM has been my only battery for 2 years now. Northstar warrant is 4 years free replacement, Batteries plus adds a year.

While I dual purpose my Northstar, I do not consider it a dedicated deep cycle AGM, That would be Lifeline, but so far it is performing beyond my expectations, but a lot of that is I charge it promptly to a true 100% state of charge, often.

Many dozens of cycles well below 50% too. I;ve no fear of using 80% of its total capacity, as long as I can get it full soon after and use high amps to get there

My Brother went to Batteries plus wanting to buy an Optima. They advised him against it. Said they are not what they use to be since the company was sold. So the Northstar ownership came from Optima? I don't know, just that's what they told me. I'm enjoying you guys talking batteries, you have some real knowledge here.

Replaced the Group 65 chassis battery recently with one of the X2power AGMs. Seems like a good battery. We sometimes run an inverter from the cigarette lighter so having the AGM will be good. And the battery post clamp fits better on the X2power knurled brass posts than on the old battery.

Our Diehard Platinum Group 34 house batteries are still good, they were made by Odyssey which have the same specs. The X2power Group 34 also has the same specs and we plan to go with the X2power AGM when it is time to replace.

[landyacht318]

For every attempt to do the right thing, there will be workarounds which will have the opposite of intended effect.

Make a law forcing this or that, and those making money by polluting or whatever, will goto great lengths to find away around it and often these attempts will be more destructive or have other hugely negative inpacts somewhere else.

Human nature, and today's upcoming generations are more selfish and self serving than ever, and money/max profit has never been a louder motive.

[azrving]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Naio, the EARLY EPA has morphed. It had to. Read my explanation about how a government agency and employees first nails a board across its butt then desperately ever-seeks more reasons and excuses for empowerment.

The EPA needs a triple-dose of non partisan Ex-Lax. A commission to trim 80% of the fat and streamline regulations to IMPROVE protection. An oversight regulatory function.

We lost the Federal Trade Commission which made valiant efforts to protect consumers against fraud. Now we have fat-cat bureaucrats whose job it is to filter and select which objective to pursue that would gain the biggest headlines.

As for pollution and the public. A mandate is needed. Stop with the negotiable fines that are never collected at face value and send the violators to JAIL. Handcuffs, swarms of reporters taking pictures of jerks getting their head stuffed down into the back seat of a squad car. Destroy the environment - go to jail plus corporate fines PLUS individual personal fines for corporate executives responsible for deciding (criminally) to evade the law. Dump dangerous pollution? The company gets fined. The executive or employee gets their britches burned off, and then cools their heels for a stretch wearing fluorescent coveralls.

I'm mean...

Oh, I got it, actually protect of environment, not just be shake down artists. Sounds good to me.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Naio, the EARLY EPA has morphed. It had to. Read my explanation about how a government agency and employees first nails a board across its butt then desperately ever-seeks more reasons and excuses for empowerment.

The EPA needs a triple-dose of non partisan Ex-Lax. A commission to trim 80% of the fat and streamline regulations to IMPROVE protection. An oversight regulatory function.

We lost the Federal Trade Commission which made valiant efforts to protect consumers against fraud. Now we have fat-cat bureaucrats whose job it is to filter and select which objective to pursue that would gain the biggest headlines.

As for pollution and the public. A mandate is needed. Stop with the negotiable fines that are never collected at face value and send the violators to JAIL. Handcuffs, swarms of reporters taking pictures of jerks getting their head stuffed down into the back seat of a squad car. Destroy the environment - go to jail plus corporate fines PLUS individual personal fines for corporate executives responsible for deciding (criminally) to evade the law. Dump dangerous pollution? The company gets fined. The executive or employee gets their britches burned off, and then cools their heels for a stretch wearing fluorescent coveralls.

I'm mean...

[Naio]

Well, I agree there is a lot of flaking off and butt covering in every beaurocracy, corporate or government. But you and I both remember the days before the EPA. Imperfect protection is far better than nothing at all.

I see your snowplow and I raise you Love Canal. Where I grew up (not love canal), the miscarriage rate was astounding, due to dioxin. Better now.

[T18skyguy]

landyacht318 wrote:

T18skyguy wrote:
Batteries plus has a battery with a guarantee of 5 years. It is both a starting battery and a deep cycle. The man who developed the original Optima sold the company, and started a new one. Sorry I can't remember the name of the battery, but seems pretty awesome and has brass post's. It's advertised as 100% lead(so cheaper ones are not all lead?) Anyway, it's 300 bucks. Buy online and pick up in the store is 270 bucks. The name of the battery starts with an x is as much as I remember.

The X2 power battery fropm B+ is a Northstar battery.

The rumor I heard about the founding was that some guys left Enersys/ Odyssey battery to start their own battery company.

No Idea if it is true or not, but many Odyssey and Northstar batteries share the same specs, and both claim thin plate pure lead.

I am getting excellent service from a group 27 northstar AGM. In november it turns 4 years old and it has about ~615 deep cycle on it. I do use it for both engine and house. I used to have a separate house battery but once I saw I could depleted 65Ah of its 90AH capacity and it still easily started my engine, I gave up on the idea shoehorning a trojan T-1275 into my engine compartment.

The northstar AGM has been my only battery for 2 years now. Northstar warrant is 4 years free replacement, Batteries plus adds a year.

While I dual purpose my Northstar, I do not consider it a dedicated deep cycle AGM, That would be Lifeline, but so far it is performing beyond my expectations, but a lot of that is I charge it promptly to a true 100% state of charge, often.

Many dozens of cycles well below 50% too. I;ve no fear of using 80% of its total capacity, as long as I can get it full soon after and use high amps to get there

My Brother went to Batteries plus wanting to buy an Optima. They advised him against it. Said they are not what they use to be since the company was sold. So the Northstar ownership came from Optima? I don't know, just that's what they told me. I'm enjoying you guys talking batteries, you have some real knowledge here.

[landyacht318]

I don't care about the screwy31 anymore. My screwy schumacher starts on its own and does what it wants to it when I turn on a power strip, unless I decide to press some of its buttons and thereby exert some minor control over its expected insanity.

I got nearly 500 cycles from it before removing it from my rig, most recharges from solar. Yes it wasted energy to get back to full. Not using a generator, I don't care.

Now the screwy31 simply takes some load off my workshop circuit when powering hi amp AC tools, powering 12v led lights and fans, which also were removed from rv for their more powerful later models.

Between a lifeline and a northstar in my intended dual purpose usage where superhigh CCA is enjoyed and utilized, I might again go for the Northstar, perhaps a 31 instead of a 27.

But perhaps the lifeline could spin the engine just as fast when well depleted, and last more total cycles. Without actual data that would be a guess, edu mun cated or not.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

What ails your Screwy 31 is uh er "avoidance?" of performing a Charge Efficiency Factor drawdown test.

Regular flooded CEF 84-88 CEF. The Screwy might be in the seventies and I do not mean "high" seventies. Then again it might be in the sixties. Heart/Lung machines seem miraculous. What evil lurks in the heart of a babysat battery. De shadow know.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Treated correctly the .105" plate Lifeline is something akin to an heirloom. But must keep in mind "conditioning" an AGM like equalizing a flooded battery - sheds plate material. So, blow snot repeatedly at both brands of AGM, then condition them to kiss and make up and guess which one is going to live longer?

It is similar to comparing a GC220 to an L16. What would drive a stake through a GC220 heart makes the L16 giggle.

[landyacht318]

Thin plate, I hear you.

But I am impressed with this batteries performance and longevity an.

While never before could I charge a battery so well, never before did I get much more than 2/3 the cycles that I have gotten from this battery, but I will not make any ridiculous claims of 'still going strong' 'just fine, and 'good as new', which are so popular when one wants to pat themselves on the back for their product choice.

I can tell it has lost some grunt, but I will not be shopping for any replacement battery anytime soon. I can take 45 of its claimed 90AH capacity and voltage still rebounds well above 12.2v, at 600+ cycles and 3.5+ years of age. It still accepts 65 amps for 25 minutes when depleted 60 of its 90AH before hitting 14.7v.

Thin plate pure lead might be a marketing gimmick, but I would get another Northstar battery, and might very well do that whenever this one is compromised enough that I lose confidence in it. But that day is not here and I do not see it coming anytime soon.

But then Again the screw31 is still alive, but is mostly sittng around the pool being fed bon bons.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I wonder how a "Thin Cord" RV tire would be received?

A plate is a plate is a plate

Flooded or VRB

The Exciting New Abrams II Lite Tank? Thinner armor = better gas mileage?

Sorry Landy - 🙂 🙂 I swear it was like a car bound dog resisting a fire hydrant after a four hour journey

[landyacht318]

T18skyguy wrote:
Batteries plus has a battery with a guarantee of 5 years. It is both a starting battery and a deep cycle. The man who developed the original Optima sold the company, and started a new one. Sorry I can't remember the name of the battery, but seems pretty awesome and has brass post's. It's advertised as 100% lead(so cheaper ones are not all lead?) Anyway, it's 300 bucks. Buy online and pick up in the store is 270 bucks. The name of the battery starts with an x is as much as I remember.

The X2 power battery fropm B+ is a Northstar battery.

The rumor I heard about the founding was that some guys left Enersys/ Odyssey battery to start their own battery company.

No Idea if it is true or not, but many Odyssey and Northstar batteries share the same specs, and both claim thin plate pure lead.

I am getting excellent service from a group 27 northstar AGM. In november it turns 4 years old and it has about ~615 deep cycle on it. I do use it for both engine and house. I used to have a separate house battery but once I saw I could depleted 65Ah of its 90AH capacity and it still easily started my engine, I gave up on the idea shoehorning a trojan T-1275 into my engine compartment.

The northstar AGM has been my only battery for 2 years now. Northstar warrant is 4 years free replacement, Batteries plus adds a year.

While I dual purpose my Northstar, I do not consider it a dedicated deep cycle AGM, That would be Lifeline, but so far it is performing beyond my expectations, but a lot of that is I charge it promptly to a true 100% state of charge, often.

Many dozens of cycles well below 50% too. I;ve no fear of using 80% of its total capacity, as long as I can get it full soon after and use high amps to get there

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Like most things, refining Pb or lead is not black & white.

It's relatively easy to refine to 98% purity. But that would be like 99% pure diamond or 98% pure milk.

It's getting the garbage 2% out that costs to the square of the reduction.

Go to eBay or your favorite site and ask for "Laboratory Grade" lead. It will be 99.997% pure or thereabouts. Which is a lot purer than what is required to make a good quality AGM battery. But the cost of lab grade lead is a knee-knocker.

Certain natural Pb mineral deposits are exceptionally pure. Mexico has it's share. But mining, refining and transportation drive the cost up. And suspicious buyers demand random sampling.

Recycled lead is "purified" to the standards PPM imposed by the BCI. Rather than indulge in metallurgy here, suffice it to say the recycled "lead" of today is NOWHERE as pure as it was in the 1950's and 1960's. Minute quantities of Tarlek hyperbole miracle additives may not get sorted out. Thus, US Battery's miracle "Selenium" alloy could end up in a Johnson Controls, or Exide product. The foregoing is an example not hard proven data.

What the BCI would love is 1-2% reclaimed product the numbers denoting antimony percentage.

However if you are under the delusion that a battery is a battery keep reading for my impression of the GC220 (today's moniker is "GC2"...

a) Premium manufacturers use premium grade (purer) lead and control antimony levels.

b) Grid construction is incredibly important because if the grid cure is inferior the paste applied does not "stick" well. Premature failure.

c) Cheap manufacturers use cheap paste. For instance really top drawer paste may weigh 4,000 lbs per batch. The same QUANTITY of lesser paste may weigh 3,880 lbs. Good paste is colloidal to the micron. Lesser paste is not uniform and may contain particles far larger. The paste does not "stick" to the grid well. It may green unevenly.

d) Every batch of 400 batteries being greened may need an optimum kWh of energy and BTU of heat and precise percentage of humidity and air circulation to green the batch. Now. Insert a bargain battery "Bean Counter". Nitroglycerin and Paint Shaker time?

Personally I would like to compare the difference between a bargain basement battery and a good quality GC220 as being similar to what the School of Hard Knocks pounded into my head recently.

Wal-Mart Douglas tires.
$55.00 each
2,000 miles wear. 3/32" removed

Michelin tires
$88.00 each
3,000 miles wear. Slightly less than 1/32" removed.

The only factorial that makes sense with batteries is the number of kWh service rendered for the cost. Cents (fractional) per kWh.

I GROAN when someone throws a batch of off-breed GC220 batteries at me and asks me to "cure" what ails them. Half the time they can be equalized using FAR FAR FAR more kWh than a Trojan or Rolls battery, and then they resume their evil ways (lose equality of specific gravity) 10 times faster than a good battery. Think the customer isn't going to bytch and moan? Think again. These folks drive 20 miles to save a quarter per gallon on gasoline.

Saving a hundred dollars on batteries then investing 300 dollars in time and trouble during their lifetime "Ain't Where It's At". Connected to a power post it makes little difference. In heavy off-grid service, troubleshooting, generator run time, fuel expense and inconvenience is the payback for saving money purchasing a flooded GC220.

If a user is not off-grid oriented, has no experience comparing a good flooded GC220 with a bargain GC220, and has no idea of fuel expense and generator run time I cannot see how in the world they can be a credible reference as to how good or bad any GC220 really is IN COMPARISON

It like a guy claiming "Never owned or driven a xxxxxx but I know they're not worth it - junk - full of problems - uncomfortable - fuel hogs - underpowered"

And Naio...

The first rule of government is to make ones self indispensable. They DO NOT SIMPLIFY the end goal. They complicate it. Sometimes the end goal gets shrouded so in reality achieving it is not really the objective, running circles through endless hoops ensures the agency is kept busy and essential.

CalTrans 1983. Short stint to cure electrical issues in District 9 remote stations north of Bishop. Guy who hired me Jay Adams district manager says "David, you are going to get a lot of flak. Do your job and shrug it off. You are fire-proof"

So I violated Sacramento CalTrans directives. No longer did the International 6-wheel trucks get forced into using a pair of 450 amp hour group 4 3-cell batteries in series. I exchanged them for a pair of 900 CCA group 31 6-cell batteries. Result? The 6 wheel dump trucks with 3208 cat engines started in -20F weather. The station foremen were ecstatic.

Rotary Snow plow out of service because of transfer case shift fork broken. Roads not rotaried. Remove transfer case access plate. Remove shift lever use my own not available at CalTrans Allstate 275 Super Missile Weld rod to weld fork. Reinstalled. Rotary went to work and stayed working for years afterward.

Shop foremen who hated my guts kept trying to catch me goofing off. Sorry. No spare time to good off. Roads need to stay plowed and always a shortage of equipment.

Foreman catches me running the overhead on a Detroit 8V-71 and changing injectors one day (above my pay grade).

"Look. You can not keep doing this stuff. You violated state rules about batteries. You installed alternators rated way higher in amperage than what the specification sheets in Sacramento call for....and....and....and...

YOU ARE SPOILING THE FOREMEN AT THESE FOUR STATIONS!!!! LOOK AT YOU! THIS TRUCK SHOULD WAIT FOR THE LOWBOY NEXT WEEK AND GO TO BISHOP!"

"But, Herb (his real name) they need this truck today to spread cinders" Cinders is gritty volcanic ash used to increase traction on snow and ice.

"WELL WE'LL SEE ABOUT ALL THIS!"

I did not get fired or even reprimanded. Jay Adams actually gave me a hug at the end of my tenure. And you could NOT have GIVEN me a permanent position with a Fiefdom oriented abstract goal waste of taxpayer money that government agency is.

I have made jokes about possible homicide if I had been forced to work at a battery manufacturer or other corporate entity. Believe it. It was and is no joke.

So you wonder about the EPA and lead? First, strap yourself in and go look at how the EPA operates. Then look at their productivity. Look at the real cost of their "supervision". Then go look at closed battery plants and long unemployment lines.

[pjw73nh]

Went to B+ yesterday. Looks like I am going to go with 2 GC2s i a few weeks. I will have to modify the battery tray a bit, but I think it's worth it. Not fond of the extra 65 Lbs on the tongue, but I'll manage. Thanks for all the input.