Why can't I get a TRUE Deep cycle battery anymore?

[pjw73nh]

As the title says. Why can't I get a true deep cycle battery any more? I suppose I could get a $250+ high end one (Optima/Trojan etc), but I am looking in the sub $150 range. I use my trailer 6 times a year and pay close attention to battery maintenance. I consider them disposable after 3-4 years.

I used to be able to get them at Walmart/Sams/Autozone etc... Now all they offer is is deep cycle RV/Marine batteries.

I don't need the starting power or vibration resistance of a marine battery. I want a reasonably priced TRUE DEEP CYCLE NON MARINE battery.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Trojan HAD to find a niche because it is impossible to out-cheap bargain basement warfare and win. Made in Mexico batteries are done in the LTH plant in Monterrey Nuevo Leon as are Optima and others. Gigantic rail lines multi lane highways and vast border commercial crossing points. Everything but electrical power and diesel fuel is ridiculously cheaper this side of the border.

By processing reclaimed batteries for the lead costs are minimized. Trojan chooses the high-hurdles route. Better quality but crippled by significantly higher production costs. Rolls and their flooded batteries are also in the same boat. Lifeline of course is a domestically produced AGM product. Niche markets aredemanding. My alternators had to actually be tougher than factory originals. Just dealing with the famous, Ford, spin-open, rotor nightmare was tough. I had a special 6000 RPM lathe and hand held twin contactor 48 volts 9 amps. Those rotors that passed this test were dipped in urethane and baked. All rotor rebuilders SAND off cured varnish. Not me. A 3 hp motor powered a twisted wire brush and pole pieces were buffed clean whe still hot from the oven. Another lathe finished slip rings to around a quarter-thousandth of an inch. I purchased special re-wound stators from Bill Lund at Lund & Flynn Chula Vista CA. New used laminations meaning old copper windings were not burned to reclaim the old copper. Burning HARMS silicon coated laminations killing output versus rotor RPM.

Every one of my remans had new 150 amp rated rectifier bridges NTN LUA bearings and custom Saint Marys Carbon brushes. 12SI Delco alternators lost the useless turbine fan.

Yes they could not compete with Velcro and wingnut "Bringer back 500 times it has a lifetime warranty" garbage. But guess what -some- customers are smart enough to figure out what the game was and insisted on saving more money in the long-run.

The type of customer who did not drive 20 miles to save 25 cents a gallon on gasoline.

It all depends on what the customer can tolerate. "Vacation ruined? Shucks bringger back er, Fred isn't it? We'll find one that works! No matrer what it takes (you)"

[Crabbypatty]

Trojan Batteries. I had a set of t-125 on my prior TT for over 10 years and sold it with them going strong. Bought two new t125's and we dry camp all the time. Im sure Ill get at least 10 years out of this set. Best deep cycle battery on the market as far as I am concerned. They are made for use in golf carts and electric forklifts as well as heavy marine industrial use. Sure you can buy inexpensive ones but they wont last as long. Trojan Batteries are built to last. Yes they arent cheap but you do get what you pay for.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

All I wanted was a Stepford, wife.

Fact is, the Johnson Controls, RV battery has no changed in say 15 years. It's still 2.75% antimony .050" plate thickness.

What changed was the label. The prolific growth of off-grid left the never-was-deep-cycle car jar batteries the laughing stock of the battery industry.

WHHAAATT? No change?

That's right. Oops I screwed-up: The label changed.

As Bob Marley put it...

"Don't Worry Be Happy"

[pnichols]

pjw73nh wrote:
As the title says. Why can't I get a true deep cycle battery any more? I suppose I could get a $250+ high end one (Optima/Trojan etc), but I am looking in the sub $150 range. I use my trailer 6 times a year and pay close attention to battery maintenance. I consider them disposable after 3-4 years.

I used to be able to get them at Walmart/Sams/Autozone etc... Now all they offer is is deep cycle RV/Marine batteries.

I don't need the starting power or vibration resistance of a marine battery. I want a reasonably priced TRUE DEEP CYCLE NON MARINE battery.

"Reasonably priced" is the limiting factor in your search.

Here's what we have two-of in our RV - but they weren't reasonably priced. If I get 5 to 8 zero-maintenance years out of them to amortize their cost over ... then IMHO their 230 amp-hours of true deep cycle AGM capacity were worth every cent: http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC115-12

By the way, we just returned from our longest continuous dry-camping period ever, and they performed brilliantly using a combination of 13.8 volt converter and Honda EX650 portable generator recharging, 13.8 volt converter and built-in Onan recharging, and idling Ford V10 130 amp alternator recharging. They needed recharging from about 50% SOC about every third day when supplying the refrigerator controller powered full-time, two CPAP machines powered about 8 hours each night, LED interior lights powered as needed, and occasional phone, laptop, and Jetpack recharging.

I did not "fully" recharge them during this time, as indicated by the current they were still drawing at the end of each recharge session. They got fully recharged by the engine alternator on the 7 hour drive home from the campsite. They are kept fully recharged 24/7 at home by the 13.8 volt converter in the RV.

[MrWizard]

for DAILY needs NOT INCLUDING A/C
for a/c you will need the generator,

IIRC .. one member can run a small window a/c from his solar augmenting his batteries
during the peak of the day, only about (2) hours then the batteries start going down hill fast

i think he did this testing in his driveway, not when camping

[Homeless_by_Cho]

MrWizard wrote:
LeRoy
lots of variables
..
technically it may be possible, there are few here that claim to do it
but how feasible it is ? well....

lithium, offers about 1/5 the weight and (4) times the cost, maybe more

technically it may be possible That is the answer that I needed. I fully understand an energy audit and battery needs. I was trying to figure out if I could go generator free. That is only use the gen set on non-sunny days. Now I know the answer.

I kind of made the decision to go with AGM's for the maintenance free advantage. My camper batteries are in a very inaccessible area. Li-Ion are light weight but expensive and will still need to be bulk gen charged each day. From what I have read, both AGM and Li-Ion batteries want to be very fast recharged each day for the longest life.

Thank you Mr. Wizard,
LeRoy

[MrWizard]

LeRoy
lots of variables
life style, how much power do you use in 24hrs ?
in your ideal scenario
the solar has to be capable of supplying that during the daylight max solar hours
that means returning every ampHR+ used overnight, plus all the ampHrs being used during the day, or they will NOT be at full charge when dark comes
and it has to do this in the winter (short daylight hours) wherever you are at

technically it may be possible, there are few here that claim to do it
but how feasible it is ? well....
depends on those factors mentioned, amount of power use and size of solar array and where you 'winter' etc..

4, 5, 6 or more big batteries, are heavy and expensive, using AGM
my battereis weight 102# each, and i have (5) of them

lithium, offers about 1/5 the weight and (4) times the cost, maybe more

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Total battery bank ampere hours

Divide total by a factor of six.

This gives a comfortable amount of hotel power plus can recharge batteries with consistancy.

Better to be a little light on panel capacity then plan on occasional "rest days" for hotel extraction and let the sun top off the batteries.

Full solar reliance means ignoring absorbsion charging specs offered by OEM. Voltage must be set higher.

Buy your batteries and buy an amp hour meter first. You need to live-the-life and know for a fact what your lifestyle needs as far as daily amp hours. Once you have that amp hours figure return and get advice from the panel a d controller nerds.

[Homeless_by_Cho]

MrWizard wrote:
Here is my routine
There are exceptions, on the avg
I start the generator in the morning and run thru breakfast, maybe lunch
I run until charged, or charged to the point that solar can supply the needed power while also to charging...

I want to go to AGM batteries this fall and want to FULLY recharge them with solar ONLY everyday to get the best battery longevity.

I am very confused. Is that even a possibility? Assuming that I have enough solar panels and full bright sun, Is solar ONLY capable of producing enough voltage to quickly and FULLY recharge AGM batteries?

I keep reading about people bulk charging batteries using gen sets early in the morning and allowing solar to top off the batteries to 100% SOC thru out the remainder of the day. So again my mind still wanders if solar ONLY is capable of producing enough voltage to quickly recharge AGM batteries?

A very confused LeRoy

[profdant139]

Mex says, "I consume more time daily blowing my nose."

I sympathize -- my allergies are terrible, too. 😉

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Yup. Informed consumers destroy less resources - like me avoiding Wal-Mart tires.

The discouraging part about recommending shortcuts and major lifespan improvements about battery management is the whining about "Are We There Yet?" Nothing could be further from reality. I consume more time daily blowing my nose. Going 10-15 years on a battery needs little interpretation as to the benefits.

[MrWizard]

Here is my routine
There are exceptions,
on the avg , I start the generator in the morning and run thru breakfast, maybe lunch
I run until charged, or charged to the point that solar can supply the needed power while also do charging
In the past year with daily full time use, the lowest morning charger on my meter was 69.x percent aka 30 percent overnight use
My last set lasted 5 years i expect this set to last longer
They are getting treated better, charged all the way to full, much more often
Since this set started out with an amp meter that counts the amp hours and displays the charge rate or discharge rate
The meter was added when the other set was several years old, until then it was watch the voltage, not amps and SOC

[MEXICOWANDERER]

It has to do with passage of electrons through openings in the glass mat (I had to simplify this forgive me). Like all things electro-chemical the formula is not linear. But suffice it to say

Charge a depleted AGM slowly over weeks and months

Fail to reach 100% charge over weeks and months

The AGM will throw a Kevorkian Fit.

Toss another reason why the insanely high ampere rechargeability of a Lifeline appeals to me.

But slow and partial recharging is a cumulative degradation. It takes time and the degree of discharge makes all the difference in the world. For instance no AGM could care less if only discharged 40%. Meaning 60% remaining.

But the less than full recharge enters the picture. The longer that insufficient recharge is sustained added to the percentage missing is how that mistreatment is factored.

Perspective

Even 4-5 weeks camping while shortchanging the recharging is not going to kill an AGM. But using a Schmart Charger to recover after you get home is yet another insult to the process. Another Megawatt Moment...

[brulaz]

landyacht318 wrote:

...
Low and slow solar only recharges, are not so good for these. They need the high amp recharge from a well depleted state every so many cycles, in my experience.

Low and slow solar is usually what we are doing.

What about telecom AGMs? (used or otherwise)

Same issue? The folks here with telecoms all seem to have generators that they daily fire up to keep them recharged, but it's not clear to me if that is really necessary or not.