Yamaha 2000i's in parallel

[BradTX]

HI y'all, I'm new to this site and new to rving. I have a 2016 R Pod and would like to boondock. I bought two Yamaha 2000i's (after a lot of research) to run my TT. They will run my Dometic Penguin 2 13.5 btu a/c but when the a/c cuts off, they speed up and go off line on overload. I've run them with the economy switch off, and with it on. I first ran them with it off and they went down when the a/c cut off. When I ran with the economy switch on, they took the load just fine and then ran at approximately 1/4 to 1/2 speed. I thought this would work because it would give them room for more speed once the a/c cut off. Nope. Any suggestions? I've done so much research before I bought these units but have not heard of this problem. Is there something I can add to bring the load down slower, or is there something possibly wrong with the units? Your input is much appreciated.

[2naEagle]

I spoke to someone just a couple of months ago that had $6000 in damage.
I have the EMS-LCHW50 with digital display , Hughes Autoformer and will get the SSP-50XL as soon as I can.

[bill-e]

SoundGuy wrote:

bill-e wrote:
This is simply my opinion and not based on research but my observation is that 90% of campers do not use any power protection and I've never talked with anyone who attributed product failure to low voltage.

I'd say it's more like 98% of RV owners who don't use any sort of power protection for their rigs but I do personally know of several who have suffered damage, in most cases the converter. My own closest local dealer in an average year will replace a couple dozen, earlier this year sold a new trailer and had it returned a short time later with a blown converter, microwave oven, and electric fireplace - the suspicion being the owner had used an adapter of some sort and tried to plug it into a 240 vac source - a scenario any EMS would absolutely have prevented. JMO, but every RV owner should be using some sort of surge protection device that will also detect line wiring issues and shut off power to the rig if it's either too low or too high.

I agree with using something, which is why I do but I guess my point was thatthe odds are greatly in your favor that you'll be OK. Most folks like to play the odds since it's a choice beteeen spending a not insigficant sum of money now vs maybe never....they never look at the cost of their gamble if they are wrong....just human nature.

[SoundGuy]

BradTX wrote:
SoundGuy,

Now you've got me looking at surge protection and voltage regulation.

Then you may be interested in this ....

Now that I understand the main surge prevention device used in both VRs and surge protectors are MOVs that are considered to have a finite life - i.e. the more hits they take the closer they get to total failure - I've decided to revise how to best protect my own trailer's electrical system from potential failure.

The fist step in this plan is to not leave the trailer plugged in here at the house 24/7 as has been my normal practice but rather plug it in only as necessary, either when I want to use it or to ensure the battery is topped up. That way if there's a spike or surge in the incoming source it won't get to the trailer and therefore can't degrade the surge protector's MOVs.

Secondly, now that I've learned that TRC's policy is to not supply replacement parts of any kind I'm going to replace my existing 30 amp TRC Surge Guard with a 30 amp Progressive Industries EMS, the question being which one. To that end I emailed PI yesterday to ask the following questions ...

"Your EMS-HW30C and EMS-LCHW30 offer field replacement parts but does the same apply to your portable EMS-PT30C? Secondly, I can buy your surge protector here in Canada but dealers / distributors don't seem to handle these spare parts ... do I have to order them directly from Progressive and would there be any issue in shipping to a customer like myself here in Canada? Thirdly, what differences are there between the EMS-HW30C and EMS-LCHW30? Thanks!

... to which I received the following answers ...

"The PT30C is a sealed unit, so there are no customer serviceable parts. If repair is required, it must be returned to us. We deal directly with the customer, when repair is required. We would ship the parts directly to you.Parts are usually sent by US Postal Service and I know of no problem associated with that. There is no functional difference between the EMS devices. The difference between the LCHW30 and HW30 is that the the display is located inside the LCHW30, while the HW30's display is remotely located."

That confirms it - I'll go with a Progressive Industries hard wire EMS which can be field repaired later by myself should that ever become necessary, so I only need to decided which version of the two available would best suit my particular situation.

Thirdly, since all these VRs contain some number of MOVs and I know MOVs by their nature are prone to eventually fail it seems to me it's rather pointless to invest $500 in a VR, only to have it die later and not be repairable because I can't get the parts. As such, I've decided to just forget about using a VR and if the EMS shuts down power then I'll simply unplug and wait it out, just as we've done in the past. We've dry camped many times before so although occasionally doing so when the incoming power source isn't suitable may be an inconvenience that's all it is, an inconvenience - and not worth the aggravation involved in owning a piece of electronic equipment, in this case a VR, that can't be repaired because I can't get parts for it. :M

[SoundGuy]

bill-e wrote:
This is simply my opinion and not based on research but my observation is that 90% of campers do not use any power protection and I've never talked with anyone who attributed product failure to low voltage.

I'd say it's more like 98% of RV owners who don't use any sort of power protection for their rigs but I do personally know of several who have suffered damage, in most cases the converter. My own closest local dealer in an average year will replace a couple dozen, earlier this year sold a new trailer and had it returned a short time later with a blown converter, microwave oven, and electric fireplace - the suspicion being the owner had used an adapter of some sort and tried to plug it into a 240 vac source - a scenario any EMS would absolutely have prevented. JMO, but every RV owner should be using some sort of surge protection device that will also detect line wiring issues and shut off power to the rig if it's either too low or too high.

[bill-e]

This is simply my opinion and not based on research but my observation is that 90% of campers do not use any power protection and I've never talked with anyone who attributed product failure to low voltage. I think the number of surg protection users is higher than VR users but not by much.

I originally considered a Hughes VR but ended up with a PI EMS instead.

[BradTX]

Ok, so the 44260 gives minimum surge protection while letting voltage variations through to the voltage regulator, and if you get a surge that passes through the 44260, it will possibly fry the VRSG but the 44750 or the 34830 will protect your tt. It seems it would be better if the 44750 or 34830 would let through voltage variations to the VRSG and then you wouldn't need two surge guards.

About your circuit board, maybe you can find someone third party that could repair it at a reasonable cost. At work, we've had some fried components on our automation boards and found someone to rebuild them cheaper than the manufacturer or replacing it. I'll look up the company. It won't be until next week though, I'm on vacation.

[SoundGuy]

SoundGuy wrote:
I'll know myself later when I call TRC to see if they'll sell me a replacement circuit board for the dead VR I currently have sitting on my workbench. 😉

Well no joy there. :M I just talked to TRC tech support and they won't sell me a new circuit board, his only suggestion being that if we can produce an original copy of the bill of sale their customer service might offer a refurbished VR at a somewhat discounted price. No parts, some help that is ... something anyone thinking of purchasing a TRC product might want to consider. Grrrr! 😞

[SoundGuy]

BradTX wrote:
SoundGuy,
Now you've got me looking at surge protection and voltage regulation. Looking on the TRC site at the pdf for the 30 amp VRSG, it states I need surge protection before AND after the regulator. Is this overkill? It would seem the surge protector upstream of the VRSG would be protection enough. Am I missing something?

Brad:

My apologies for taking this discussion off your original generator topic. However, it seems to me that fully understanding how to best protect our trailers' electrical systems, regardless of how we're powering it, is worth discussing. Yes, at first glance it would seem that double surge protectors is overkill, however there are good reasons for this when you look at the details. TRC's first recommended stage is a simple surge protector such as their basic model #44260 which really doesn't do much more than suppress surges, rated to 2100 joules / 6500 amps, and detect possible pedestal miswiring ... it has no ability to cut incoming power if it's either too low or too high, nor should it as the VR obviously can't do it's job if the incoming source has been disconnected. Logically one would think features emulating those offered by the #44260 would be built in to voltage regulators such as those offered by TRC and Hughes in order to prevent the VR from self destructing but apparently that's not the case. TRC's solution therefore is to recommend the #44260 be inserted in the line before the VR for this purpose -

"The VRSG is not a protective device and the connected RV will not be protected from damage should an open neutral develop during the course of operation. The fault indicator panel is for indication only. Note: The VRSG is not a surge protector. To achieve the ultimate combination of line voltage and surge protection, use with Surge Guard models 44750 or 34730 which must be plugged in after (downstream) of the VRSG. In addition, to provide surge protection for the VRSG, use Surge Guard model 44260 which must be plugged in before (upstream) of the VRSG."

However, neither the #44260 surge guard nor their #10176 VR have any ability to protect the RV's electrical system against other common line issues and for that TRC recommends using a fully featured surge protector such as their model #34830 (current version of the older 34730 which I own), inserted after the VR.



Logically one would question why these manufacturers just don't simply combine all these features into one box, the answer I suspect being cost which would likely discourage many from making the investment in the first place. The second issue is that none of these devices should be considered a "one time, lasts forever purchase" - given a sufficient number of hits it will eventually fail and will require repair, a situation I suspect many consumers wouldn't understand or view favourably at all. It's one thing to replace a basic $100 surge protector, quite another to replace or repair a $1000 "all in one" box. As mentioned earlier I suspect that's why Progressive Industries offers a limited lifetime warranty on their hardwire EMS and has a program in place to offer replacement circuit boards that can be field installed by the user - it's just a clever way of dealing with components they know will eventually fail and in this regard TRC may have really missed the boat. I'll know myself later when I call TRC to see if they'll sell me a replacement circuit board for the dead VR I currently have sitting on my workbench. 😉

[BradTX]

SoundGuy,
Now you've got me looking at surge protection and voltage regulation. Looking on the TRC site at the pdf for the 30 amp VRSG, it states I need surge protection before AND after the regulator. Is this overkill? It would seem the surge protector upstream of the VRSG would be protection enough. Am I missing something?

[SoundGuy]

wa8yxm wrote:
Re the Hughes Autoformer... and Surge protection.

The Hughes does contain MOV's which are spike supressors.

SoundGuy wrote:
I think I'll have to open up this blown TRC VR I have and see if it too has some MOVs.

Well curiosity got the best of me so I opened up this faulty TRC voltage regulator and found a "crispy" circuit board. I see only 2 MOVs and they "look" OK but one of the relays is totally melted and a large 10 watt resistor burned black ... step up transformer looks OK, no signs of overheating, but yeah this VR is pooched! Arrghhh! :M

[mlts22]

I've wondered how hard it would be to have the MOVs on a cartridge similar to fuses. That way, when it goes out, replacing it is easy.

[SoundGuy]

wa8yxm wrote:
Re the Hughes Autoformer... and Surge protection.

The Hughes does contain MOV's which are spike supressors.

I think I'll have to open up this blown TRC VR I have and see if it too has some MOVs. Convenient that manufacturers don't make it known that MOVs typically have a finite lifespan and can eventually be expected to fail once exposed to sufficient numbers of spikes. Many laud Progressive Industries' limited lifetime warranty vs TRC's 1 year warranty but I suspect this has as much to do with the fact Progressive knows they're going to see units with failed MOVs and have developed this protocol as a means of dealing with it and looking good to the public all at the same time. It also explains why Progressive has made their hard wire EMS units field serviceable ... simply send them your circuit board (which contains the MOVs) and they'll send you a replacement you can install yourself. What? ... me suspicious?! ... nah! :W

[wa8yxm]

Re the Hughes Autoformer... and Surge protection.

I really do not like that they call spike supressors surge guards. A spike is a very brief voltage reise, Many scopes are not fast enough to catch it and no digital meter is,, An analog meter will catch it but not tell you how high it went (The needle wiggles) NO meter is fast enough, you need a high speed scope. (Several MHz at least)

SURGES can last for seconds.

The Hughes does contain MOV's which are spike supressors.

[SoundGuy]

FWIW, I have at this moment a blown TRC #10176 30 amp voltage regulator sitting on my workbench and because I know for a fact that the owner wasn't protecting it with a Surge Protector #44260 (which TRC specifically recommends in the VR's owner's manual) I'm fairly certain that this VR has suffered a significant voltage surge. :M

From the owner's manual -

"The VRSG is not a protective device and the connected RV will not be protected from damage should an open neutral develop during the course of operation. The fault indicator panel is for indication only. Note: The VRSG is not a surge protector. To achieve the ultimate combination of line voltage and surge protection, use with Surge Guard models 44750 or 34730 which must be plugged in after (downstream) of the VRSG. In addition, to provide surge protection for the VRSG, use Surge Guard model 44260 which must be plugged in before (upstream) of the VRSG."

When plugged into a properly wired source that reads 122.2 the output from this VR is just 115.8 volts even though the unit indicates it's in bypass mode and there is no load plugged into it's output ... in bypass it's output should closely match it's input. Furthermore, the over voltage LED is on, indicating the incoming source voltage exceeds 132 volts, which it does not. I've email TRC for commentary but since I'm in Canada it's doubtful that returning it to TRC in Florida could in any way be a cost effective solution, leaving me little choice but to open the box myself and see what I might do to repair this unit. My best advice - if you're running any brand of voltage regulator with your recreational vehicle you'd be well advised to protect it with a surge protector which does not have low & high voltage shut off ... this will allow the VR to deal with any low voltage sags but at the same time protect the VR from random voltage surges.