2013 Lance 1172 compatibility with Lithium ion batteries

[Geterdone]

Can a 2013, 1172 Lance TC, that has deep cycle batteries and a 100 Watt oem solar panel, take Lithium ion batteries without any new hardware or major mods? Will my charging an converting equip stay the same as well as the controller on the solar?

Thanks for your advice

[3_tons]

time2roll wrote:

srschang wrote:
Hey 3 tons, I'm struggling with extended (weeks, months) with my 2 LiFePo4 batteries in my Northstar. I also have small parasitic draws that discharge the batteries over the course of several weeks. And I don't want to disconnect the batteries as my Pioneer stereo takes me 15 minutes with the manual to get demo mode off, dazzling display lights off, all four speakers working..... every time I disconnect it from the batteries.

I currently have a Progressive Dynamics 45A LiFePo4 converter. The problem with the PD LiFePo4 chargers is that they charge at 14.6v - all the time. So if I leave the camper plugged in, it will sit at 14.6v as long as it's plugged in. Bad for LiFePo4 batteries. I found that the WFCO 50A LiFePo4 replacement converter/charger section charges at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drops down to 13.6v as long as the camper stays plugged in. If the camper is unplugged and plugged back in, it will again charge at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drop to 13.6v until the camper is unplugged. Perfect for leaving it plugged in for extended lengths of time. Here's a link to an interview with the CEO of Battle Born batteries. His comments on long term battery storage start at 12:50. Comments specific to longterm float at 13.6 are at 14:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

Scott

I believe the PD has a jumper to revert to the normal 3 stage charging. FAR better than the actual lithium profile.

Boondocker spends just 15 minutes at 14.6 volts and IMO much better than the 4 hour WFCO.

That’s good to be aware of! ...I not too familiar with Boondocker but note that for some LiFePo4’s 14.6v is at the BMS charge cut-off point - always best to first check the battery’s specs - just saying, “trust but verify” - lol

3 tons

[time2roll]

srschang wrote:
Hey 3 tons, I'm struggling with extended (weeks, months) with my 2 LiFePo4 batteries in my Northstar. I also have small parasitic draws that discharge the batteries over the course of several weeks. And I don't want to disconnect the batteries as my Pioneer stereo takes me 15 minutes with the manual to get demo mode off, dazzling display lights off, all four speakers working..... every time I disconnect it from the batteries.

I currently have a Progressive Dynamics 45A LiFePo4 converter. The problem with the PD LiFePo4 chargers is that they charge at 14.6v - all the time. So if I leave the camper plugged in, it will sit at 14.6v as long as it's plugged in. Bad for LiFePo4 batteries. I found that the WFCO 50A LiFePo4 replacement converter/charger section charges at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drops down to 13.6v as long as the camper stays plugged in. If the camper is unplugged and plugged back in, it will again charge at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drop to 13.6v until the camper is unplugged. Perfect for leaving it plugged in for extended lengths of time. Here's a link to an interview with the CEO of Battle Born batteries. His comments on long term battery storage start at 12:50. Comments specific to longterm float at 13.6 are at 14:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

Scott

I believe the PD has a jumper to revert to the normal 3 stage charging. FAR better than the actual lithium profile.

Boondocker spends just 15 minutes at 14.6 volts and IMO much better than the 4 hour WFCO.

[3_tons]

Geterdone wrote:
I REALLY APPRECIATE THE QUICK REPLIES. I found that the PD converter 4000 I have will NOT, HANDLE LITHIUM, LIPOF4, ETC batteries. Also, my solar charge controller may not handle either. So i am reluctant to put a lot of money in upgrading due to age of camper. I will likely go to 2 AGM Group 27 batteries, so if any suggestions on good ones of those let me know.
thanks again....will know now that there is more to it than meets the eye. I am glad I did not buy Lithium without checking.

Steve

Wrong, Someone is providing some thoroughly ‘unqualified’ advice (seems par for the course with ‘black box’ Li magic - lol)..Your PD 4000 series will do just fine with Lithium so long as you have the optional Charge Wizard dongle, and by merely switching it into the Boost Mode which is 14.4v - this is precisely how I charge my battery using a old school PD 9245, then simply discontinue the charging, and this is also why PD’s Li specific charger adds little value to the Li charging proposition (except for marketing $$ - because it never bleaping shuts down!!)...

The same is true with your solar charger(s) assuming that they can output 14.4v and can be switched off sometime after the charging cycle... 14.4v is the main criteria - truly a no brainer...To summarize, all you need is 14.4v and your PD 4000 series does this...

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/inteli-power-4600-series/#charge-wizard

3 tons

[Geterdone]

I REALLY APPRECIATE THE QUICK REPLIES. I found that the PD converter 4000 I have will NOT, HANDLE LITHIUM, LIPOF4, ETC batteries. Also, my solar charge controller may not handle either. So i am reluctant to put a lot of money in upgrading due to age of camper. I will likely go to 2 AGM Group 27 batteries, so if any suggestions on good ones of those let me know.
thanks again....will know now that there is more to it than meets the eye. I am glad I did not buy Lithium without checking.

Steve

[3_tons]

srschang wrote:
Hey 3 tons, I'm struggling with extended (weeks, months) with my 2 LiFePo4 batteries in my Northstar. I also have small parasitic draws that discharge the batteries over the course of several weeks. And I don't want to disconnect the batteries as my Pioneer stereo takes me 15 minutes with the manual to get demo mode off, dazzling display lights off, all four speakers working..... every time I disconnect it from the batteries.

I currently have a Progressive Dynamics 45A LiFePo4 converter. The problem with the PD LiFePo4 chargers is that they charge at 14.6v - all the time. So if I leave the camper plugged in, it will sit at 14.6v as long as it's plugged in. Bad for LiFePo4 batteries. I found that the WFCO 50A LiFePo4 replacement converter/charger section charges at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drops down to 13.6v as long as the camper stays plugged in. If the camper is unplugged and plugged back in, it will again charge at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drop to 13.6v until the camper is unplugged. Perfect for leaving it plugged in for extended lengths of time. Here's a link to an interview with the CEO of Battle Born batteries. His comments on long term battery storage start at 12:50. Comments specific to longterm float at 13.6 are at 14:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

Scott

Well, since you’ve mentioned that the PD charger stays on indefinitely, I would assume that your camper has access to shore power while it storage...

The problem with most dedicated Li chargers is that there’s no such thing as a ‘one size fits all’ charger algorithm due to a lack of a common convention by the various battery manufactures - thus, the charger guys are left to ‘going it alone’ with their whatever in house LiFePo4 algorithms....The PD unit would be much improved if they’d add a timer, but then the timer would need to be triggered by a reference point... You could always just add a corded timer from a big box store, but would still need a reference point to achieve unattended charging...I agree that theres no point in leaving the charger ON once charging is complete, thus the necessity to determine when the battery is FULLY charged, and BMS balanced...A float mode is inconsequential (i.e. not needed)...

The Victron BMV 712 meter has a genny start signal output that could be repurposed for the charger (say on either the 120v or the 12v sides) but you’d need a relay, and a high amperage relay (say, of up to 1C) can get a bit pricy...

You might consider adding a battery disconnect atop the batt pos post (see my previous..), and then just keep the PD Converter-charger ON when in storage - this should keep the interior lights on and your stereo programming intact...

Without a Li capable meter (like Victron’s or equiv.) you can monitor battery voltage (near the rapid conclusion of ‘upward’ voltage rise) with a VOM to ascertain when the battery has fully charged (resting at 14.4’ish), shortly after which the BMS will begin it’s ‘balancing dance’ evidenced by voltage (and current...) alternatively dipping and recovering - this process might complete itself in say just a few brief minutes...Once voltage finally ‘remains’ stable, this balancing act is complete...

This is the methodology that I use, and for ‘extended long term’ storage I purposefully deplete the battery down to about a 50% state of charge (SOC), then do a disconnect - 50% (approx), a state of ion equilibrium that minimizes the possibility of harmful dendrite formation, and extends battery life...

3 tons

[toddb]

the victron 712 has a contact that can be connected to the PD charger to disconnect at a programmable state of charge.

[srschang]

Hey 3 tons, I'm struggling with extended (weeks, months) with my 2 LiFePo4 batteries in my Northstar. I also have small parasitic draws that discharge the batteries over the course of several weeks. And I don't want to disconnect the batteries as my Pioneer stereo takes me 15 minutes with the manual to get demo mode off, dazzling display lights off, all four speakers working..... every time I disconnect it from the batteries.

I currently have a Progressive Dynamics 45A LiFePo4 converter. The problem with the PD LiFePo4 chargers is that they charge at 14.6v - all the time. So if I leave the camper plugged in, it will sit at 14.6v as long as it's plugged in. Bad for LiFePo4 batteries. I found that the WFCO 50A LiFePo4 replacement converter/charger section charges at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drops down to 13.6v as long as the camper stays plugged in. If the camper is unplugged and plugged back in, it will again charge at 14.6v for 4 hours, then drop to 13.6v until the camper is unplugged. Perfect for leaving it plugged in for extended lengths of time. Here's a link to an interview with the CEO of Battle Born batteries. His comments on long term battery storage start at 12:50. Comments specific to longterm float at 13.6 are at 14:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

Scott

[3_tons]

Yes, I have a single 200a/hr LiFePo4 battery installed in my 2009 Eagle Cap...I’ve also retained the OEM Progressive Dynamics 9245 converter-charger...Also, determining SOC (state of charge) with lithium can be a bit problematic (due to a nearly flat voltage discharge profile), so I solved this malady with Victron BMV 712 SOC meter (lithium capable), which also has a uber detailed smart phone bluetooth display...

For details on charging, my camper has a few parasitical drains, even when the master switch is turned off...Add to this that my truck doesn’t have a battery isolation switch, so over a time (shore power off to avoid unnecessary charging) the LiFePo4 battery’s SOC would very slowly drift down...

With wet cells this scenario would never present a problem because storage is with shore power, and the converter-charger would simply maintain the battery in a 13.6v float condition, no matter...However, with LiFePo4, storing a RV in continuous float mode is detrimental to longevity, thus not a good option...

My solution was to simply ‘isolate the battery’ when camper is in storage because of Li’s uber low naturally occurring voltage loss, and because theres no need to equalize Li (an OEM conventional charger algorithm) ...Because I have 440w of solar, and because Li recharges fairly fast, I have no real need to be connected to the vehicle’s charging system...So to isolate the battery I simply disconnected the charging circuit wire from the vehicle, and added a basic knob-type disconnect switch (ebay) atop the battery’s *positive post (*as recommended per Victron BMV 712 manual) - Battery isolated!

Now, when I store the camper (in my RV garage) I FIRST deplete the battery to about the 50% SOC range, then isolate the battery via this disconnect switch...In this way, shore power still operates the camper’s OEM on-board converter-charger, which provides both 120v and 12v to the camper for lighting, etc...

When isolated in this fashion, the Li battery will hibernate at about this SOC mid-point (ions equally distributed between anode and cathode) for an extremely long period of time...

Feel free to PM me if you have other questions regarding actual experience...

3 tons

[mbloof]

Geterdone wrote:
Can a 2013, 1172 Lance TC, that has deep cycle batteries and a 100 Watt oem solar panel, take Lithium ion batteries without any new hardware or major mods? Will my charging an converting equip stay the same as well as the controller on the solar?

Thanks for your advice

Replace both.

A new Li compatible converter charger costs a few 100$ and a solar charge controller with ether a built in Li profile or user programmable profile about the same or less.

Both are simple and easy changes (at least it was for me)


- Mark0.

[Lwiddis]

Does the OEM controller have a setting for Lithium batteries?