Considering an HTT. Where do I start my research?

[ToddD]

(Those that also frequent the PUP forum will notice the cut and paste job I did. Turns out that instead of a PUP, we may be better suited to a HTT, so I'm starting a new thread here.)

The wife has admitted that if we could increase the level of comfort, she'd be willing to go camping more often. Our current set-up is a large tent with air mattresses. I'll admit, even I wake up stiff and sore.

So, we have the room to store a 20-25' foot long trailer on our property, and are budgeting $10-15k. AC and a porta-potty would be nice. Tow vehicle is a 1 ton truck. 3 season camping is our goal, nothing in the winter. We like being out in nature, and don't necessarily want to completely isolate ourselves inside when camping. We also have a 7 year old kid. I'm a big dude, 6' 5", 260lbs.

So: where do we start our research? There seems to be a lot of HTT manufacturers and models out there, and it's challenging, to say the least, wading through options.

Best brands? Must-have options?

Can y'all help a noobie out?

[bikendan]

ToddD wrote:
Ok, so if I'm looking at this 2012 23SS, what *are* the downsides compared to a TT?
outside noises but not quite as bad as a tent or popup due to the full walls. need to use PUGs and Reflectix to help with temp control, slightly extra time to setup beds but look at how much extra sleeping capacity you get for a little extra work and you may have to put away wet canvas and dry them out when you get home.

How much work is it to pop open the beds and prepare them? Are high winds a threat (what is a PUG?)? Is the lack of insulation on the canvas sections a load on the HVAC?
like others said, an extra 10 minutes or less with the newer pre-attached canvas ends. PUG's has already been answered. only a minor extra load for HVAC.

Now some generic trailering questions:

What's a CCC?
Cargo Carrying Capacity

The campground we go to frequently on the Chesapeake has "quiet time" between 10pm and 7am. That means I can't even run my EU2000. AC won't run off a battery pack, I assume, so I guess I would need to rent a site in the RV area to use the hookups there?
if you plan on staying where it's going to be hot all nite, get a hookup site.

If we didn't care about the AC, can the fridge run off on board batteries, or is it propane powered?
if you plan on dry camping a lot, get two batteries and use your Honda to recharge them. also will need a tote tank to empty gray tank, when dry camping.
fridge uses very little battery power for the electronics, when on propane. it's the furnace that will drain a single battery for one night of continuous use.

Would a 23SS come with an inverter, or should we be prepared to add one? Brand and size?
hybrids don't come with inverters, but all RV's come with converters. only needed if you plan on dry camping. i installed a 400w inverter in my 23SS for the tv/dvd/electronic devices charging.

Can you just load up bikes and luggage inside for the trip, or should they be properly secured?
i have a truck so i don't need to store my bikes in the trailer. luggage doesn't need to be secured.

More to come, I am sure. Thanks again for all the great advice!

[PAThwacker]

I have been camping since 1978 from a cox tent camper to Prevost 40 foot tag axle 8v92. Throw in class C, several different travel trailer, airstream, Gulfstream Diesel Pusher 5.9 cummins diesel pusher,and Beaver Patriot 8.3 cummins diesel pusher.

I got married in 2006, tented for a little bit longer, had first child in 2008, stopped camping for year and then bought a new pup for her in 2010. Second child in oven in 2011 demanded a hybrid and the story is status quo since. I have camped from Maine to Florida, and all points west to Death Valley/Oceanside California. Dragged a jeep tj behind the Gulfstream diesel pusher to the grand canyon in 2000. I have lived in PA since 1979 and turn 40 in August.

My father has been a diesel nut since 1980. He had every type of diesel since. I.E. Mercedes 240D to 300D, VW TDI, olds diesel, chevy diesel 6.2/6.5, every cummins diesel variant since 93, several power stroke fords.

I owned a soft ice cream truck with an Isuzo 3.9 liter turbo diesel. Several UD 1200 Catering trucks with 3.9 liter turbo diesels. Jeep liberty CRD,1987 6cyl 300D turbo Mercedes, and wacky 8.2 liter big block Detroit Diesel NA.

[PAThwacker]

You can load bikes into the trailer. I wedge two mt bikes in back section of our's between the fridge and back wall. I secure them with crocs! The 23ss has a converter. Its job is to send 12 volt to the battery to charge, and also feed the 120 lines. It houses the fuse panel for all 120 and 12vt features i.e. lights, water pump, hood fan, etc...
I gave explicit details of what to look for and what to avoid, even mentioned the pains and product enhancements. Several of the commenters have every type of closure, bunk door, tents, and bunk supports of the hybrid story line. The only one not seen or mentioned is the Dutchmen Aero thermorest failure when they switched from traditional A-frame tent to a radical bubble type tent that funneled the water back the trailer body.

I gave info on certain jayco product: 23B which is famous for low ride height 13" tires, low drains, horrific low CCC while inside appears to have loads of interior storage available: CCC 900lb to 700lb. The model does not work for anyone that has a sloped driveway. Jayco offers a lift kit for these as a option but it is designed to be a low riding/fuel efficient model. Several travel trailer are also setup similar i.e. Salem Cruise Light!

You need to overlook the glamper marketing and look at the finer construction details, weights and measures. Mine is simply six walls of sandwiched foam, 3400lb empty 5000lb gvw. One non attended to leak and its a goner. Load every tank and it still has 1000lbs left for the family's junk.

If I went to ideal travel trailers I prefer stick and tin, 90 gallons of fresh water, vertical clothes and storage wards, 8000lb gvw and gobs of CCC: 2500lbs plus.

[DiskDoctr]

Rvtrader.com is a good place to see a wide variety of options, most with pics, many with floorplans and inside pics.

Ccc= Cargo Carrying Capacity, weight of all the stuff you load in the camper.

[Padlin]

FWIW, you can get an idea of what used trailers should go for at Nada Guides, don't bother using all the options, just go with the base price. In general, used models at dealers are way over priced. Expect to get a new one for roughly 25-30% off sticker.

Again, use rvdirect for valid prices if you go new.

[Padlin]

ToddD wrote:
Ok, so if I'm looking at this 2012 23SS, what *are* the downsides compared to a TT?
Outside noise, more condensation, setup and takedown.

How much work is it to pop open the beds and prepare them?
Takes us about 10 minutes to setup or take down, and we don't have cables.

Are high winds a threat (what is a PUG?)? Nope, PUG= popup gizmos Popup Gismo's

Is the lack of insulation on the canvas sections a load on the HVAC?
No

Now some generic trailering questions:

What's a CCC?

The campground we go to frequently on the Chesapeake has "quiet time" between 10pm and 7am. That means I can't even run my EU2000. AC won't run off a battery pack, I assume, so I guess I would need to rent a site in the RV area to use the hookups there?
Personal preference, you want to run AC at night you need hookups.


If we didn't care about the AC, can the fridge run off on board batteries, or is it propane powered?
Runs off the propane, but also needs 12v to work for the electronics.

Would a 23SS come with an inverter, or should we be prepared to add one? Brand and size?
Again personal preference, most do not have inverters installed. They come with a converter, inverters are normally aftermarket items

Can you just load up bikes and luggage inside for the trip, or should they be properly secured?
Some do, we put them in the pickup bed.

More to come, I am sure. Thanks again for all the great advice!

[ToddD]

Ok, so if I'm looking at this 2012 23SS, what *are* the downsides compared to a TT?

How much work is it to pop open the beds and prepare them? Are high winds a threat (what is a PUG?)? Is the lack of insulation on the canvas sections a load on the HVAC?

Now some generic trailering questions:

What's a CCC?

The campground we go to frequently on the Chesapeake has "quiet time" between 10pm and 7am. That means I can't even run my EU2000. AC won't run off a battery pack, I assume, so I guess I would need to rent a site in the RV area to use the hookups there?

If we didn't care about the AC, can the fridge run off on board batteries, or is it propane powered?

Would a 23SS come with an inverter, or should we be prepared to add one? Brand and size?

Can you just load up bikes and luggage inside for the trip, or should they be properly secured?

More to come, I am sure. Thanks again for all the great advice!

[PAThwacker]

camper upgrades in last six years. shifts from flat roof to barrel roofs, black tank flush, tinted windows, electric awnings, to modern day full LED light packages!

[PAThwacker]

Major product enhancements in the last 6 or more years strictly relating to bunk doors improvements.
bunk closure changes from screw, latch, key, or other.
Continous seal upgrades,
Bunk door supports to cables
Non attached to attached tenting.
Need I continue?

[DiskDoctr]

Lots of good info posted. We have 2004 Starcraft 23srg, just before Jayco bought them, and love it!

Tows nicely, opens up for lots of floor space, couch slide out across from dining table, nice for socializing.

Super high wind PUGs make a huge difference in temp and humidity.

We are converting all over to LEDs. Over half done and keeps converter cooler. Non-ducted ac works well,as does the little addon electric heater loop.

You'll LOVE a larger fride/freezer!

[kvangil]

Drove our 10-year-old Jayco 23B through a heavy downpour/thunderstorm in MN last week; I was expecting perhaps a little bit of the rain to have seeped in at the front bunk door... Got to our overnight destination, checked the bunk--totally dry. 🙂

[bikendan]

ToddD wrote:
I also see a 2014 23IKSS a few hundred miles away for about 1k more, which is a little confusing. Seems that model has a lot more going for it with dual slide outs and more storage? Wonder why so cheap.

So: how wet do side bunks get when it rains? Seems that is major shot people with TTs take at people with HTTs. Why buy a HTT over a TT?

prices will vary dealer to dealer and what price they paid for the used trade-in 23SS. i have owned a 23SS for over 7 years and still love it. but the 23IKSS is a new model that is becoming very popular. and maybe the dealer wants to get rid of the 2014, since 2015 models are out now.

many new hybrid owners fail to read the canvas documentation in the owner's manual, that states that you have to pre-wet the canvas ends and then let them fully dry out, BEFORE you go camping in it. this allows the seam threads to swell and fill the holes.
we followed procedure and have NEVER had leaky canvas.

and then there's condensation that new owners fail to follow steps to prevent it.

most hybrid owners are former popup owners that want more amenities but still want the canvas experience. they hate the idea of staying in a "shoebox" TT. plus no TT can match a HTT in sleeping capacity. and when you open all the windows in the tent ends, a TT can't compete with that.

it comes down to this: Do you WANT to sleep under canvas? if you don't care one way or the other, DON'T buy a hybrid.
you have to really like that experience to appreciate a hybrid.
too many newbies buy a hybrid without taking the canvas into consideration.

are there some negatives? yes but most hybrid owners are willing to deal with them, to be able to continue the canvas experience.
for us, it still feels like "camping" and doesn't cut us off from the outside, as much as a TT, MH or 5th wheel would.

[Campfire_Time]

ToddD wrote:

So: how wet do side bunks get when it rains? Seems that is major shot people with TTs take at people with HTTs. Why buy a HTT over a TT?

Bunk ends on HTTs are vinyl covered canvas so there is no canvas on the outside to get soaked. Unless its pouring out when closing up we just dry them off with a towel. By the time we get home they are usually completely dry. In the few times over the years we packed in the rain its just a matter of opening up the ends and drying them out. Doesn't long at all, certainly not like trying to dry out a tent or pop-up.

You guys seem like perfect candidates for HTTs. You're already used to tents and you'll love the convenience of a fridge and bathroom. That's right, no porta-pottie to fool with! We bought our second HTT last year (both have been Jayco). The first we had for 10 years, an '03 Kiwi 17a. We love them. No leaks, no troubles at all. Concerns about being too low to the ground have rarely been a problem and our X20E is about 4 inches higher than our old HTT. We camp May - Oct. While some folks like to use the pugs on the bunk ends we've never saw the need. We've camped as cold as upper 20s near Yellowstone and as high as 105 in Las Vegas.

IMHO, the reasons TT owners take shots at HTTs is 1) An HTT was their first trailer and they did an impulse buy they were never happy with, or 2) They read a few negative posts on the Internet and think those posts hold true for everyone, or 3) They have to justify to themselves why they bought what they did.

PAThwacker wrote:

Majority of hybrids leak at front beds when towed in the rain. Major growing pains and product enhancements in the last 6 years.

I'm suprised at you as a hybrid owner. These statements are just not accurate. The majority of hybrids do not leak at front beds when towed in the rain. Neither of my units do/did. Some do yes, but the majority? I think not. Does yours? What "growing pains"? I don't understand, please explain. HTTs have been around for many years, since at least the late '90s. Our previous unit was an '03 that we bought new. Never any trouble with it.

[PAThwacker]

Hybrid vs TT
Hybrid gives maximum floorplan to living area and pushes the beds out.
23ft hybrid turns into a 30ft camper.
Short hybrid easy to manuever/store vs 33ft bunkhouse.
Rain both can leak, hybrid has wet tent ends that need to reopened once home.
Majority of hybrids leak at front beds when towed in the rain. Major growing pains and product enhancements in the last 6 years.

[PAThwacker]

ToddD wrote:

PAThwacker wrote:
I camp a lot at Promised Land State Park.

Man, I love that place. Haven't been there in years. Was the only place I could find in the area where I could camp lakeside.

Hahaha, I knew you would! sortof lakeside with a dog to boot.
Look at the 2012 23ss and offer $13k to $15K.
If not mistaken it should have a barreled roof and ducted ac, thus 6.5 approved!