Help me with current best manufacturers

[mikeleblanc413]

It's been some time since I have owned an RV...things have changed. I walked through a couple today at a local dealer and what impressed me was the use of space when you go from 17-18 feet to 25-28 feet. The larger feels like a small (LOL) apartment. I'm sure I would feel much too cramped in the smaller space. Would appreciate your help on whick manufacturers are doing a good (hopefully GREAT) job putting the sticks together. Thanks!

[JBarca]

CWilson wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
My Momentum has optional 8K axles and disc brakes, 17.5 LRH tires, a 12" tall frame, and is the first RV I have owned where the tanks actually hold what they are spec'ed at. This is my 4th RV over 30 years, and the best one yet.

Thats great, but I am not sure what the height of the frame has to do with quality. One would expect the frame rails to be larger on a bigger rig. A 12" high frame can be fabricated just as shoddy as a 6" high frame and when it comes to LCI that speaks for itself. I've yet to see a quality weld on an LCI frame and its a known fact they use cheap surplus steel whenever they can and the smallest/lightest they can get away with. You paid for the optional axles and disc brakes, what would you have gotten from Grand Design as "stock"? Are you saying that the stock axles and brakes are low quality? I looked at a 2021 Grand Design TT and it had OEM installed Lionshead Castlerock China Bombs.

I am "not" defending poor craftsmanship. I detest the lack of good quality welds and the lack of pride in a trade that has been mastered long ago. There is more to what Huntingdog was talking about past the craftsmanship issues.

I can speak to the 12" frame comment, and that size does have to do with quality. I have seen the recent years' downsizing of the main frame rails across many brands. I'm not sure what his camper is rated at, but a triple axle camper can now be on a 10" frame. Does it work? Yes, will it last? Maybe not, pending the use of the camper.

As a point of reference, I can speak to the 10,000# GVWR-rated campers, which used to have 10" main frame rails, but now they are nearly non-existent and have been replaced with 8" frame rails other than a few select brands. I will never buy a new camper in the 10,000# GVWR range on 8" frame rails. I have seen what can happen over time with them if you plan to keep and use the camper for a good long time. I dealt with the 10" rails bending behind the rear hangers from a mega pothole-laced highway. And this was on HSLC 55ksi yield steel frame rails. HSLC = High Strength Low Carbon steel has a higher yield and tensile strength and is a way to gain strength without adding weight. The standard 36 ksi steel is the same shape, just not as strong. And downsizing to 8" from 10" is the wrong direction in my view for a camper to last a long time, even if it is on HSLC steel.

These I shape thin main frame rails came out of the manufactured homes industry. They are called MH beams in the industry. The MH beams are unlike a standard true I beam used in buildings and bridges. The MH industry uses them to transport the home to the job site, and that is about it. The RV industry was looking for a lightweight beam that, on paper, would work; they found the MH beams and have been dealing with frame cracks and how to try and stop them ever since. Hanger area web cracks, rear overhang past the rear hanger on longer campers, A-frame failures, and the list goes on. There are ways how to make that shape work, but it costs more $$ in materials and more time to reinforce the frame. Why not add it to all campers using that I shape frame?

Further downsizing on 10,000# campers, axle ratings, and springs is now well established. A 10,000# camper used to come with qty, 2, 5,200# axles and springs on 12" brakes. Many brands have adopted these new 4,400# axles, springs, and 10" brakes. Why?

Thin metal roof rafters and thin composite glued-together floors, in my view, are not of lasting quality either. The list just keeps going...

Quality, even if the craftsmen ship is done right, is also with what components are selected. An RV buyer dealing with past issues is more educated on what "not" to buy. Some of us want to keep our campers for a long time, I being one of that group. In order for long life and leak-free to happen, you have to start with something built better than most and then constantly be on top of the maintenance. My only suggestion is to educate yourself on what fails on certain brands and what to look out for.

There is always more to the story.

John

[CWilson]

Huntindog wrote:
My Momentum has optional 8K axles and disc brakes, 17.5 LRH tires, a 12" tall frame, and is the first RV I have owned where the tanks actually hold what they are spec'ed at. This is my 4th RV over 30 years, and the best one yet.

Thats great, but I am not sure what the height of the frame has to do with quality. One would expect the frame rails to be larger on a bigger rig. A 12" high frame can be fabricated just as shoddy as a 6" high frame and when it comes to LCI that speaks for itself. I've yet to see a quality weld on an LCI frame and its a known fact they use cheap surplus steel whenever they can and the smallest/lightest they can get away with. You paid for the optional axles and disc brakes, what would you have gotten from Grand Design as "stock"? Are you saying that the stock axles and brakes are low quality? I looked at a 2021 Grand Design TT and it had OEM installed Lionshead Castlerock China Bombs.

[Huntindog]

CWilson wrote:

flylipsdad wrote:
Just Bought a New 20 ft Grand Design. Don't do it! The enginering isn't the Best is an Understatement. and out the Door Quality??? Rust? Door that won't open? Etc...

Huntindog wrote:
Focus on what is important.
The foundation IE, The frame axles and tanks. GD tends to have more robust items, an even has axle/tire/brake upgrades avaiable on some models. I have read good things about Northwoods and outdoors as well.

Interesting. I am not sure what Grand Design has that would qualify as "more robust items". From what I have seen and researched they use just as much cheap junk obtained from Lippert as Forest River and Thor, perhaps more, from the frame on up. A couple oif years ago they had Lippert running gear failing in a big way. A close friend bought a Solitude 5th wheel which had so many recurring issues he dumped it after a year and a half.

Grand Design was started by 3 guys who spent their life in the RV Industry, mostly with Thor/Keystone/Dutchmen RV, who were/are known for the highest level of quality LOL. They blew a lot of smoke, built up a cult like following the first few years, then cashed out and sold out to Winnebago. One stayed at Winnebago as Pres of the Grand Design Division, the other two now have started another company to fleece more people with slapped together junk. All of the original hoopla over higher quality and better customer service went out the window over time. Grand Design is no better than any other of the mass produced brands.

My Momentum has optional 8K axles and disc brakes, 17.5 LRH tires, a 12" tall frame, and is the first RV I have owned where the tanks actually hold what they are spec'ed at. This is my 4th RV over 30 years, and the best one yet.

[TurnThePage]

I have to agree. The Lippert frame on my new GD, has items literally welded on crooked, like the tongue! It's still usable and should be strong enough to last.

Where GD shines is the clever designs and layouts they've come up with over the years. Their customer service still appears to be pretty good too.

[CWilson]

flylipsdad wrote:
Just Bought a New 20 ft Grand Design. Don't do it! The enginering isn't the Best is an Understatement. and out the Door Quality??? Rust? Door that won't open? Etc...

Huntindog wrote:
Focus on what is important.
The foundation IE, The frame axles and tanks. GD tends to have more robust items, an even has axle/tire/brake upgrades avaiable on some models. I have read good things about Northwoods and outdoors as well.

Interesting. I am not sure what Grand Design has that would qualify as "more robust items". From what I have seen and researched they use just as much cheap junk obtained from Lippert as Forest River and Thor, perhaps more, from the frame on up. A couple oif years ago they had Lippert running gear failing in a big way. A close friend bought a Solitude 5th wheel which had so many recurring issues he dumped it after a year and a half.

Grand Design was started by 3 guys who spent their life in the RV Industry, mostly with Thor/Keystone/Dutchmen RV, who were/are known for the highest level of quality LOL. They blew a lot of smoke, built up a cult like following the first few years, then cashed out and sold out to Winnebago. One stayed at Winnebago as Pres of the Grand Design Division, the other two now have started another company to fleece more people with slapped together junk. All of the original hoopla over higher quality and better customer service went out the window over time. Grand Design is no better than any other of the mass produced brands.

[aftermath]

Nice post JBarca, you summed up the important issues. Everyone is different so it is hard to come up with a system for everyone. I don't like changing trailers so will purchase something with the long haul in mind. We had our Starcraft tent trailer for 17 years before selling it and now, after a good 10 years my daughter purchased it back and is still using it. We had a hybrid for about 8 years and it was holding up nicely before we retired and purchased a used Airstream. I am not pushing Airstream but I can get the same price I paid for it back in 2009, the market remains pretty strong. I do take care of my stuff and that is a big issue if you want to protect your investment.
My Airstream does not leak any more, and I would bet, far less than a regular box trailer. It is very short on storage space outside, has enough inside and is not a huge palatial trailer like so many Americans want. No slideouts either AND the price is insanely ridiculous. I got mine used back when the price of used ones were bad but not that bad.
If you want toots and whistles, like outside kitchens, fireplaces and an island in your kitchen I have no suggestions. My cousin has an Arctic Fox and I am impressed with how sturdy it is . It is also quite heavy. I have also heard that Nash makes a good trailer.
I would avoid anything that has the word "lite" in it. Again, I want something to last even after traveling many miles on the highway. How do you suppose they make trailers "lite"?
In the end, it will be important to get something you want. If you want a fireplace then you need to get one of those. Keep your eyes on how sturdy the trailer is built. Look at the GVW ratings between some of your choices. Simply walking across the floor in some trailers will say a lot. Best wishes in your hunt.

[flylipsdad]

Just Bought a New 20 ft Grand Design. Don't do it! The enginering isn't the Best is an Understatement. and out the Door Quality??? Rust? Door that won't open? Etc...

[JBarca]

mikeleblanc413 wrote:
It's been some time since I have owned an RV...things have changed. I walked through a couple today at a local dealer and what impressed me was the use of space when you go from 17-18 feet to 25-28 feet. The larger feels like a small (LOL) apartment. I'm sure I would feel much too cramped in the smaller space. Would appreciate your help on whick manufacturers are doing a good (hopefully GREAT) job putting the sticks together. Thanks!

Hi Mike, You are right, RVs have changed from 15-20 plus years ago. Most have evolved on how the camper is made, and pending on what you are looking for, the evolution may be better or worse than years ago. Many of the older, better brands got bought out or went out of business during the downturn of the economy. The selection list is now smaller.

You did get good feedback on the better brands, but even they can have issues. I'll offer some things to help sort out beyond the brand since you are getting back into RV'ing. This is the start of the questions, but it will get you going.

1. How long do you want this new camper to last before you sell it or get done using it?

2. Will the camper be stored inside or outside when you are not camping in it?

3. Are you planning long or short trips, or will you camp a lot per year or only a few times a year?

4. Do you have a tow vehicle now, or will you get one to match up with the camper you love?

Those four big-picture questions can help the brand and type of camper to meet those needs.

Now comes the more detailed questions, and the better brand campers offer a more sound approach to having a longer-lasting setup.

5. Huntingdog mentioned this; I'll add to it. The frame, axles, brakes, tire size, the GVWR of the camper, and the cargo capacity of the camper. The 25 to 28 ft camper nowadays can have a lot of room inside, but it can have very little cargo carrying capacity pending your needs not to overload the system. Do you know what a 1,000# of cargo looks like? That is not a lot, while it sounds like a lot. This cargo capacity all "depends" on your style of camping and how many people camp with you.

Cargo is also fresh water, LP gas, and the battery, and they subtract from items you can add to the camper. Here is where the fine print starts; you see a bigger camper, but some brands limit the amount of weight you can put in all that space. And then there is the wording "Lightweight camper" & "1/2 ton towable." buzz words that need to be understood as they talk about how the camper is built and sold to hit a certain market of buyers.

6. Understand how the camper you want to buy is built and what methods the floors, roofs, and walls are made. In many cases, they do not build them as they used to; longevity is not always part of the equation. Research the brand, and what they offer will last longer than the next brand. RV net or other brand forums has many reports of failing weak spots in certain areas of a brand; use this tool to help educate yourself.

7. This one may sound odd, but it is a reality if you want to keep the camper for a long time, especially if it is stored outside. Research and understand how the construction of the camper you are buying will leak. You should learn how to spot failing sealants and what to do when you see them. Not just the roof, the walls, and everything on the camper. Water intrusion is the enemy of a camper, regardless of the best brands.

8. Do you have the physical ability and the want to maintain the camper? That is a simple question that takes a lot of understanding as to what it means. This deals with the longevity question. If you are only going to keep a camper for three years, then trade it, this topic is not as important; if you want to keep it for ten-plus years, it becomes very important. Can you do the maintenance, or do you have to hire it?

9. The dealer you buy from can be as big a decision as the brand you buy. If you can do your own repairs and maintenance, this is not as much of a concern, but it can be a big issue if you have to rely on the dealer to do it. When a warranty issue arises, the dealer can be your best defense to help get it resolved. Research the dealer, repair shop, and camper manufacturer on how they handle warranty and general repairs.

As you search for your new camper, the better brands help make some of those details easier to get into a good system, but still, you need to understand them inside and out if you want them to last. A lot of "eye candy" looks great in new campers, but how long it will last and how good a service it gives you should be understood. Start the learning process as you sort out which brand fits your needs.

Best of luck to you finding your new camper.

Hope this helps

John

[CWilson]

DaveRVman wrote:
Northwoods, Lance, Airstream. I'd stay away from anything built in Indiana.

If you like small Casita.

Seen a Lance TT where the freshwater tank fell out while being filled at a campground fill station and an Airstream that had roof seams that leaked like a sieve, but ok.

[DaveRVman]

Northwoods, Lance, Airstream. I'd stay away from anything built in Indiana.

If you like small Casita.

[mikeleblanc413]

THANKS to everyone who took the time to reply. That is exactly the information I seek! And I'm sure there are others out there who will also find it most useful. Have a GREAT weekend!

[eend]

Have had both an airstream and now a northwood ( Artic fox)
I really liked the airstream but the price on a new one is nuts plus outside storage sucks.

The Arctic fox is also pricey but lots of outside storage, quality is subpar the cabinetry is just pressed board
But the AF does tow pretty nice as well did the Airstream.

[Huntindog]

Focus on what is important.
The foundation IE, The frame axles and tanks. GD tends to have more robust items, an even has axle/tire/brake upgrades avaiable on some models. I have read good things about Northwoods and outdoors as well.

[TurnThePage]

Almost any of the solid fiberglass trailers would be a good bet if you can find one you can afford which also meets your needs.

After that, I would lean toward Northwoods and Outdoors RVs.

If you can afford an Airstream, that might be good too. They are pretty and have mitigated a lot of the potential leak damage that they used to experience.

Those conventional trailers made with Azdel might have a leg up on those that aren't, but good upkeep should negate that advantage.

I just purchased a Grand Design mostly because I got a killer deal on a new 2022 model.

JMHO

[ppine]

Outdoors RV, Nash, Arctic Fox.