Outfitter Apex electrical schematic??

[Notakwanon]

Loading the truck for the Holiday weekend and found all the electrical inside the camper on the drivers side dead, so no lights, no water pump. Fuses checked and all good. Got to be a broken wire someplace but where? Is there a detailed electrical schematic out there somewhere for the Outfitter Apex? Thanks. Tom McCloud

[996Pilot]

Glad this all worked out. I think disconnecting all of the garbage from the "charging wire" and reconnecting to the "load wires" went a long ways toward solving the issues. Knowing what each wire feeds (in the Apex) is very helpful. I go through a lot of trouble to isolate each wire and trace it to its final destination - then label it. This greatly simplifies troubleshooting and correct wiring.

[Notakwanon]

Apex electrical progress report.

The 'pass-thru' from the connecting cable into the camper occurs underneath the 'step' up to the bed in the front of the camper. Within a few inches of being inside the 'step', a standard flat 4-wire 'towed trailer' cable is spliced in. Green is right turn signal. Yellow is left turn signal. Brown is the rear running lights. White goes to blue, which is the backup lights. So if you have problems with any of those rear lights, the branch point underneath the 'step' is one place to be checked.

Moving to the electric power controller box (WF-8735/8740): fuse #6 RED is "the charging wire". The 14v coming in from the truck goes to the + terminal of the camper batteries and to the red wire leading to the controller box, so when the engine is not running and you are operating exclusively from the campers batteries, this is the wire that transmits battery power into the box and to your appliances. And since my truck did not have a battery isolator, this is where the truck batteries can, over a long time, be discharged. I found 4 wires spliced to #6 RED - 2 small red and 2 larger black. I disconnected to two small reds and moved them to fuse #5 GREEN, (which wasn't in use) and the CO detector came back on. Not sure what the other small red does. Kept the two blacks, one of which is the 14v from the truck, on the RED for the time being.

As stated in my previous post, fuse #1 BROWN seemed to me to have too much connected to it - 4 large black wires, so I disconnected those and started traceing.
A) One of those wires powers the water pump, so that also got moved to #5 GREEN (not previously in use).
B) Another of those wires powers the drivers side, or counter lights, and the overhead exhaust fan. The overhead fan ONLY works if the switch near the door of the camper, which turns on the counter lights, is in the ON position. Reconnected this wire to fuse #1.
C) Another wire powers the switch that turns on the water heater. Reconnected to fuse #1.
D) The fourth wire powers the furnace fan, so I moved it to fuse #2 GRAY, which wasn't in use for anything else.

In a previous post I had mentioned that the red LED on the printed circuit board next to fuse #1 BROWN, was not coming on when the fuse was pulled. With two wires relocated (water pump and furnace fan), that LED now comes on when I pull the fuse. ??maybe some spurious feedback was occurring?? Is the purpose of the red LED light to indicate an open circuit or blown fuse??

Next I looked at fuse #4 YELLOW, which has 3 wires connected to it. Measuring the voltage across the fuse connectors, I get 3 volts????? One of these wires has a piece of red tape on it, another has green. The wire with no tape powers the radio. The wire with the red tape powers the TV plug which is on the front wall. The wire with the green tape provides 12v to the refrigerator. All 3 were reconnected to fuse #4 YELLOW.

I've been on the road, camped in this rig, and everything that I used now seems to work, so apparently the problems have been solved, even if I don't know exactly what I did. All the wires now have flags and labels on them. Thanks to all for their help.

[996Pilot]

After looking at my pictures I did a double take and remember why I was confused as all get out when wiring in the WFCO. WFCO labels (on the front panel) infer circuit 5 (green) and 6 (red) are 30A load circuits. After hours of chasing 12V feedbacks through the converter and system, I metered out the red as the 3-stage charger line AND the label on the back of the WFCO states using the RED as "TO BATTERY POSITIVE (and 12V loads)". I isolated the RED as ONLY going to the battery positive (no loads). As I said, WFCO paperwork absolutely stinks. The installation instructions basically just give you a cutout size - no electrical info.

Picture of the back label;

[996Pilot]

Tom, You may have the WFCO Converter wired wrong (based on what you have said above). The WFCO installation instructions are very confusing and border on non-existent. The WFCO Converter/Charger is just that. It functions as a converter (converting 120VAC to 12VDC), charger offering three stage charge profiles as well as an AC and DC distribution center. It must be wired for AC-In to run the converter/charger and feed the AC buss. Then wired out for AC out (from the breakers you mount on the AC buss) and 12V DC-out to your loads (lights, water pump, refer, etc.) AND ALSO the CHARGE circuit must be wired to the battery. All six DC outputs look like 12V out however only five of them are designed to handle loads and ONE of them is your 3 stage charger output. Green-Blue-Brown-Grey-Yellow are your 12V LOADS each fused on the front panel of the WFCO with the appropriate size fuse. RED is the sixth fuse down from the top and is your CHARGER wire and should be fused according to the output of the WFCO your using (in my case 30amp). The 7th fuse down from the top is your reverse polarity fuse (40amp).

It sounds like you have load items wired to the CHARGER (red wire) portion of your WFCO which is wrong. The RED wire from the WFCO goes directly to the battery positive (no in-line fuse required as it is fused in the sixth position on the front panel of the WFCO). Whatever loads you have tied to the red wire should be tied to one of the unused FIVE 12V load wires (or split to multiple unused 12V load wires).

This is the inside cover of my WFCO (guessing same as yours)


I have labeled all of my FIVE 12V load wires on the front panel next to the fuses;


On the back side of the WFCO you can see I've tie wrapped all of the 12V load wires together and the RED charger wire goes directly to the battery;


Here you can trace the RED charger wire out of the WFCO directly to the battery positive;


Lastly my AC distribution I've split into four breakers (not using all right now);


I hope you can sort this out. If not, PM me and we'll pick a time to talk.

Dan

[Notakwanon]

I'm the one who started this thread, and it has been a good one, at least I've learned a few things. My Outfitter Apex 12.5 may be a 2004 model year - I bought it used. I did not like the noisy fan in the power controller that was in it. The power controller in it now is a (WF8735/8740) and since it is not old I discounted that as being a problem. I like it because it is much quieter than the previous one.

We found a melted fuse holder or fusible link in the battery box, connected directly to the positive terminal, so this may explain why the batteries were not charging properly. This was replaced with a new holder and 30 amp fuse.

As posted previously, the problems with the quirky rear camper lights (brake, turn signals) were solved by removing the rear light fixtures, cleaning the grounding points and making sure there was shiny metal to metal contact. Bad
grounding is not unexpected with a 10+ year old truck/camper.
My truck does not have a battery isolator, and I still want to get that in.

On to the troubleshooting: It made sense to start at the truck harness, move thru the cable connecting the truck to the camper, and then on to the camper batteries and power controller. It is possible, though you need to be a
contortionist, to access the outside cable plug thru the sliding door underneath the sink. The inside plug requires removal of the 'step' up to the bed. No obvious problems, corrosion, broken wires, etc. were found anywhere.

With the engine running we measure 14v at the GM harness, and 14 v where the cable connecting the camper passes thru, but 12 v at the camper batteries. A specific problem has not been found, but an additional ground wire was installed from the passthru to the truck frame. Over the next half hour the measured voltage at the camper batteries gradually climbed, though not reaching 14v..

So back to the controller box: I appreciate it that pilot996 took the time to post the schematic that he had drawn and it appears to be the same model of WF controller as I have, but I've found significant differences in wiring between my Apex and the schematic, as listed below. The controller has 6 x 15 amp fuses, each terminal color coded, and 6 wires coming out of the back of the box, color coded in the same way. Two of those wires are not connected to anything, leaving 4 to figure out which appliances they supply power to.

Measuring the voltage across the fuse holder terminals I find:

Fuse 1, brown, measures 0 volts, yet if I pull this fuse, water pump goes dead, panel with batt/water/gray/black goes dead, water heater switch goes dead, counter lights on drivers side go dead, roof fan goes dead, the furnace fan is dead. How can this be?

The printed circuit board onto which these fuse holders are mounted has a tiny, red, LED next to each fuse. This LED does not come if I pull fuse 1, but does when I pull fuses 3-6.

Fuse 2, gray, measures 0 volts (not connected to anything)

Fuse 3, blue, measures 12 volts - powers the overhead lights on the passengers side and the propane detector.

Fuse 4, yellow, measures 3 volts - powers the radio and perhaps the refrigerator.

Fuse 5, green, measures 0 volts (not connected to anything)

Fuse 6, red, measures 12 volts - powers the 12v plug for the TV - AND the the overhead lights on the passengers side go out when I pull the fuse! How can this be? See fuse 3 above.

The power to start the on-board Onan generator comes from somewhere else, as it cranks regardless of fuses 1-6.

So with some new fuses and cleaned grounds, most everything is operating again, but I don't know enough to interpret what seems to me to be the observations listed above. It seems peculiar to wire so many appliances to run off fuse 1, rather than distributing the load across other circuits. And before I forget what I've learned, I should draw a schematic.
Tom McCloud

[Testudo]

magic43 wrote:
All of the 12VDC circuits on my 2004 Outfitter Apex 8 are home runs.

Yeah, I really can't imagine them _ever_ daisy chaining 12 volt appliances. So the cause has to be multiple buss points or multiple conductors.

I think all the 12 volt neutral wires are bundled together at the buss. I wonder if a bunch of neutrals could have slipped loose from their buss terminal ???

[magic43]

All of the 12VDC circuits on my 2004 Outfitter Apex 8 are home runs.

[Testudo]

A bit off topic but, ...at least back around 2006 (and so maybe, before and after) OUTFITTER's electrician was daisy-chaining 120 volt loads at least sometimes. My camper was significantly customized by OUTIFTTER but it was designed with a wiring harness that was intended for "simple tastes". In my case, the electrician pretty much worked with the harness that brung'im and daisy-chained a lot of stuff. Not illegal or fatal but not a good idea for many reasons.

The first thing I did was to switch my 20amp main cable to appliance use and installed a 30amp hookup and cable to serve as the new main. Then I added any more outlets and appliances I wanted and home-run'd all the 120 volt cables to individual circuit breakers ( I had specified the PROGRESSIVE DYNAMICS 5000 load panel and 45 amp converter in my build but I had overlooked the fact the Caribou harness was a 20amp affair).

Note that if you have multiple appliances on a daisy-chained circuit or otherwise sharing a single circuit breaker, it might appear that, "...every 120 volt appliance on the port side is not working", when in reality it is all related.

My own big electrical brouhaha came on a trip west when our dual fuel water heater appeared to go out en route. I guessed I had left the circuit on at some point during preparation and inadvertently burned out the heater core. When we got to Colorado and I could sit down and do some trouble shooting, I found that the electrical element on the water heater was just fine ! Must be the switch, right ? Wrong ! The switch was fine. Checked the circuit breaker again and moved it a space on the bus - - fine ! So it must be a broken conductor in a cable, right? Too much detail to deal with on a trip so something to save for when we were back home...

So I settled back to enjoy the vacation but being the mental clockwork that I am, I started going over the route of that cable in my mind. I traced it mentally to a point just before the circuit breaker panel... to a GFCI outlet ! I had installed inline GFCI outlets (outlets were much cheaper than dedicated GFCI devices) underneath the seat to protect most of my appliances - - but especially ones filled with water ! Sure enough, I tried resetting one of the twin GFCI outlets in my electrical compartment and it wouldn't reset - - to was dead. GFCI outlets do that sometimes. But all was well again after a short trip to LOWES to get a replacement (...I always carry a replacement, now !).

[Testudo]

So you have a 2003 APEX ? ...And you are talking 12 volt power, only ?

I'm not sure what OUTFITTER was doing back then but it is not like they didn't have decades of RV manufacturing experience under their belts so I can't imagine 12 volt loads being anything but 'home-run' (not daisy-chained) and you say that 12 volt items on the port side aren't working. So we are talking "conductors" - - plural. I suppose it is possible that some major trauma occurred under the step to the bed where the wiring bundle crosses to the port side. I would check under there, first, for trauma to _multiple_ conductors.

If there is no problem, there, I can't imagine that only port side wiring got cut somewhere else on the starboard side. What are the odds of that? And then, if it was a problem with the 12 volt bus, what are the odds that only appliances on the port side were affected ?

So, that crossover point sticks out like a sore thumb - - check under there, first. You can unscrew the step so you can inspect it from above.

One thing that doesn't quite add up is that OUTFITTER was wiring lights to a "wall" switch on the port side down near the rear door. You seem indicate that lights on the starboard side are working. Since the wiring for the lights on the starboard side effectively pass through that choke point under the step to get to that switch, I would think the starboard side lights wouldn't be working, either. ...That would tend to send me back to looking for a broken 12 volt bus.

First check to see if power is coming off the buss for _each_ 12 volt load (remove the 12 volt fuse and measure the voltage across the blades). If you get voltage, there, then the conductor is broken somewhere down the line. Note that "broken" implies that the trauma might still be under insulation and might not be visible. The trauma might not be obvious. If you happen to have a DC clamp-on amp meter (not likely, I guess), you could spot check down one of the conductors until you get no current. Once you find one trauma, you are likely at the point of all the trauma.

And one massive final point: When was the last time you checked your house battery !?!? Is even 12 volts coming off the battery ? Since wires to the port side are longer, things on the port side might not work because of increased resistance and a low voltage. Stuff on a 'short tether' might appear to still work while the true problem is the battery! Don't just put a charge on the battery, check the electrolyte levels!!!

[silversand]

....this is part of our disaster mitigation tool-kit (everyone may want to consider it inside every camper Class A, Class C, Trailer, 5th Wheel, truck camper, etc):

-a set of screw drivers to remove any broken lock from the inside of the camper (on the Outfitter lockset like ours, it is a Phillips screw driver if you ever have to remove the door lock from inside the camper)

-2 fire extinguishers (1 within reach of your cab-over bed) and 1 under the propane stove mounted to the cabinet wall

-in the case of a pop-up camper or truck camper with soft walls: a very reliable knife (like a Ka-Bar) to slice through through the vinyl softwall in seconds to escape, if there is an emergency that precludes you from getting out through the camper's rear door and your cab-over roof hatch is too small to exit through

-an emergency window breaking device in case a propane fire ignites so quickly, you can't get to the rear camper door, nor to the cab-over escape hatch, and you can't negotiate the large dinette window emergency opener

-two 700 to 1000 lumen flashlights (1 in the cabover mounted to the ceiling or, in an emergency velcro device; a second one mounted to the face of a kitchen cabinet)

-1 additional propane detector mounted near your propane lines; 1 additional CO detector mounted near the bed (in addition to the camper 12V system detectors that may not work if your 12V DC system fails (!)

And, in all your vehicles: a seatbelt cutter and emergency window smasher securely mounted to your seat, where you can get to them (ie. if your seatbelt cant be released easily and you find yourself upside down in water, or after an accident your vehicle catches fire).

....sorry...back to the program: electrical 12V issue (I would try Joerg's seemingly easy fix first, for Outfitter owners that have split (left/right) electrical circuits :D)

[Notakwanon]

Been on the road since Friday, so have not worked on finding the problem yet. Thanks for the schematic. I'll start troubleshooting on Tuesday. Lots of things still don't work, and the door lock mechanism broke on Sunday morning, so I had to crawl out a window. More things to fix. TM...

[996Pilot]

Never heard back from this post. Please let us know if you got the problem fixed and, if so, what was the problem?

[996Pilot]

Fixed -- not fixed -- problem?? What became of this?


Click For Full-Size Image

[Artum_Snowbird]

It might be as simple as tightening the neutral wires on the feed panel. You can check easily with a meter to see if it is the hot feed to the devices, or if it is the neutral return that has failed.

On volts, have one person hold one lead on the neutral bus, or use a jumper, and put the other end into the bottom of a socket. If you now show power, it's the neutral return that is off.