Space Heater

[junmy3]

We use a small 1500W ceramic space heater that is not adequate. Today we looked a Lowes and saw a much larger heater, but is was also only 1500W. So my question is what kind of heater would be better. I know we could use the propane furnace, but prefer to not have to when we have electric hook-ups.

[pianotuna]

Sophisticated Inverter chargers can be limited to as low as 5 amps. That would allow 2 1500 watt heaters to be run, so long as the fridge is set to propane.

[Huntindog]

toedtoes wrote:
The assumption that you are making is that if you are plugged into a 30amp outlet, you are using that entire 30amps. Therefore if you also plug into the 20amp outlet, you are using more than authorized and "stealing".

But you are not accounting for the actual usage. I may have two heaters but I can't plug them both into my RV outlets because the outlets are all on the same 15amp circuit breaker. So I run one off the 20amp outlet at the pedestal so it doesn't pop my breaker. But my actual electrical use is still under the 30amps that I'm paying for.

Our electrical rates here have a major increase for a peak period. I can run 2X load during non-peak hours and still pay less than running X load during peak hours. So am I stealing if my greater usage cost is less than someone using less during the higher cost period?

It is pretty much impossible to run two space heaters and stay under 30 amps. Normal TT loads such as the converter will put you over. That is why some here have found that their main breaker pops when they do it... Sooo, They then come up with workarounds.... Which puts them over a 30 amp draw.
The only way you can possibly do it is if one of the space heater has a reduced wattage setting you can use.

Otherwise, you will be over 30 amps
This is just another of lifes inconveinent truths

As for time of day peak charges.... That depends on the campgrounds electric plan. It is probably different than your plan.
I know that in AZ we have several rate plans to choose from.
But yes anytime you draw more than the 30amps you are paying for.... It is theft from the campground. It is a simple concept.. You have a 30 amp rig. Due to its design, it cannot use more than 30 amps without popping a breaker. The campground has every right to expect that you will not be using more than the rig was designed for.... If you run another cord, you are adding potential to draw above what your rig should be capable of. So you should pay for the higher rated service.
Another inconveinient truth.

PS... If you want to try it on your 30 amp main, just plug one of the heaters into your microwave outlet. It has its own breaker, so no cord to the pedastal needed.... And you can then be sure you are under 30 amps.... But I'll bet you lunch you will pop the main breaker.

[toedtoes]

The assumption that you are making is that if you are plugged into a 30amp outlet, you are using that entire 30amps. Therefore if you also plug into the 20amp outlet, you are using more than authorized and "stealing".

But you are not accounting for the actual usage. I may have two heaters but I can't plug them both into my RV outlets because the outlets are all on the same 15amp circuit breaker. So I run one off the 20amp outlet at the pedestal so it doesn't pop my breaker. But my actual electrical use is still under the 30amps that I'm paying for.

Our electrical rates here have a major increase for a peak period. I can run 2X load during non-peak hours and still pay less than running X load during peak hours. So am I stealing if my greater usage cost is less than someone using less during the higher cost period?

[Huntindog]

Lantley wrote:
@ Huntindog
I think where we disagree is calling it theft. Is the football team stealing at the buffet because they eat a lot of food? I'd say they paid the rate and ate all they could.
Campers are doing the same thing. What you are essentially saying is you are not allowed to plug into the 20 amp outlet on the pedestal, because that constitutes theft. You are not basing the theft on how much electric a camper actually uses. You are basing it on camper hooking into the additional 20 amp outlet amp outlet.
If CG's did not want those 20 amp outlets used it would be easy enough to remove them. Although I believe the GFCI maybe code in some places?
The idea of theft is over the top.
I have a 50 amp RV. I can and do use 3 space heaters for heat am I committing theft? Why is it theft when a 30 amp RV'er uses space heaters?
What if a 30 amp RV'er plugs his electric griddle into the 20 amp outlet is that theft?
Maybe it's not space heater detectives we need but 20 amp outlet enforcers that are needed to cut down on this new form of CG thievery

No I do not think the theft word is where we disagree.
Points I think we can all agree on:
Electricity cost money.
How fast one uses it costs money.
The over all amount also costs money.
Someone has to pay for it.

Having set these points out, I will admit that I learned something in this thread.

I always knew that Elec. rates varied wildly from location to location.
But until PT posted his rates, I had no idea it was that cheap anywhere.... In AZ we would consider those rates free. We pay many times more than he does. And I know that AZ doesn't have the highest rates

That may have some bearing on how some view this topic.

Regardless, the principle is the same. If your campground has multiple rates for elec. IE: 30 amp, or 50 amp.... And you pay for 30 amp, then use a method to draw more than that.... It is theft period. Whether it is pennies or dollars makes little difference.
I suspect those that see this as OK may be in a cheap elec area, and everyone is OK with it.
But these RVs have wheels for a reason. Venture out enough, and you may be suprised.

[pianotuna]

Lantley,

My absorption fridge on 120 volts uses 5.7 kwh per day *if* I do not open the doors. My fully featured dual door residential with ice maker and cold water dispenser uses about 0.75 kwh

Lantley wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Lantley,

Residencial fridges are way better for the campground owner than absorption units.

Your probably right except when you add ice makers and water in the door etc. I agree they are more efficient but they are also typically bigger.

[rhagfo]

mooky stinks wrote:
When we sit out at the fire, my DW sometimes has me plug a heating pad into the 20amp outlet so she can put it on her chair. I never realized I was married to such an outlaw.

Well sure seems like it!
Be on the outlook for the Power Police!!

[mooky_stinks]

When we sit out at the fire, my DW sometimes has me plug a heating pad into the 20amp outlet so she can put it on her chair. I never realized I was married to such an outlaw.

[GrandpaKip]

Quote “Or they have a reading comprehension problem.”
Yeah, a lot of that going on. And, I suspect, the beginnings of cabin fever.
Anybody need a fence post?

[Lantley]

@ Huntindog
I think where we disagree is calling it theft. Is the football team stealing at the buffet because they eat a lot of food? I'd say they paid the rate and ate all they could.
Campers are doing the same thing. What you are essentially saying is you are not allowed to plug into the 20 amp outlet on the pedestal, because that constitutes theft. You are not basing the theft on how much electric a camper actually uses. You are basing it on camper hooking into the additional 20 amp outlet amp outlet.
If CG's did not want those 20 amp outlets used it would be easy enough to remove them. Although I believe the GFCI maybe code in some places?
The idea of theft is over the top.
I have a 50 amp RV. I can and do use 3 space heaters for heat am I committing theft? Why is it theft when a 30 amp RV'er uses space heaters?
What if a 30 amp RV'er plugs his electric griddle into the 20 amp outlet is that theft?
Maybe it's not space heater detectives we need but 20 amp outlet enforcers that are needed to cut down on this new form of CG thievery

[Lantley]

pianotuna wrote:
Lantley,

Residencial fridges are way better for the campground owner than absorption units.

Your probably right except when you add ice makers and water in the door etc. I agree they are more efficient but they are also typically bigger.

[Huntindog]

dieseltruckdriver wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

dieseltruckdriver wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
Not at all.
I think that whatever your 30 amp service can provide is justified.
But some seem the think that running another cord from a seperate outlet is OK.... I do not. Some even have gone to the trouble of adding a seperate way to get the power into their 30 amp unit... That in my eyes is theft. Often the park operator will just overlook it, as they do not want a confrontation. It is kind of like shoplifting. Everyone pays for it in the form of higher prices.
50 amp service generally costs more, as the park understands the electricity use will be higher

Well I have a separate outlet just for a space heater that plugs in to the 15 amp outlet. I have never been to a place that charges different fees for 30 or 50 amp service.

So explain how having that outlet that makes me a thief. I do it to ease the load on the rv wiring.

Broad generalizations really shouldn't be made.

When you do such a mod to "ease" the load on your TTs 30 amp service,,,, It allows you to consume more than 30 amps...If and only IF the electric cost is the same at the park for 30 or 50 amp, then this would be OK.. It just means that the park has decided to make their 30 amp customers subsidize their 50 amp customers.
But don't pull out the generalization line.

We all know that electricity costs money. 50 amp service costs more than 30 amp service. Somebody will pay for it. The park is not in business to be a charity for those that try to cheat.

You ARE making VERY broad generalizations.

Why do you assume that every 30 amp rv is using a full 30 amps.I do not assume that. You are entitled to 30 amps 24/7, if that is what you are paying for. I have never used 30 amps. I know because I use much more power in the summer, and I have never tripped my or a campground breaker. People don't trip the breakers in general, meaning they are NOT using the full amount of their 30 or 50 amp rig.

By the way, I deal with peak power rates at work daily, and being a controls person, I make sure the power demands stay within our peak limits. So I do understand what you are saying, I just think you are being overly harsh and making some large assumptions. No one is going to run their rigs at the ragged edge of tripping breakers.Ummm... Several people have stated that they have moded their rigs with seperate outlets to avoid tripping the breakers... Other speak of using a seperate cord just for the space heater....IOW, use more power than they are paying for.

Or maybe you are running a campground that is going broke, and are looking for scapegoats? THAT IS JUST A JOKE!!!!!

[Huntindog]

Lantley wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Lantley wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Naio wrote:
If the people who are using 30 amps + 15 amps are supposed to pay more, does that mean I get a discount for my van that only has a 15 amp service?

I also don't use the sewer dump, the cable TV, and usually don't use the water hose. Do I get a discount for all these things?

Again, out of context. If a park has seperate fees for 30 or 50 amp service, then one is not entitled to use more than that.
Itf there were enough people only using 15 amps then you would likely see a lower fee for that use.

Yes but if you think those running space heaters are committing theft Do you believe those using only 15 amps are entitled to refunds?I never said that spce heater use was theft. So long as you do not exceed the service you are paying for.... It is fine
I imagine the CG sets their rate high enough to include those using space heaters, or those running 3 AC's etc.
If the CG rate is not high enough to cover these worst case/max.use scenarios, than the CG's need to increase their rates.

Actually yes, I do think they should be charged less.... Though I doubt, it would happen. The van people just are not a big enough part of the business to cater to.

I can not believe how many people get this concept of not using more than you pay for so confused.
Do you got to the grocery store, put some apples in a bag and eat some of them before checking out too?
I imagine the store charges enough to cover the theft????

Actually they do. What those that bend the rules to their likeing may not realize is that they are stealing from everyone.
The RV park and grocery store compensate for abuse/theft by raising prices for everyone. Your parents, best friend, your children, neighbors, The handicaped people, those struggling on social security, disabled vets, and everyone on this forum.... Even the ones you like. They all pay more because of this.

But hey, pat yourself on the back, as you got it for free.

Where your analogy is wrong is that you are comparing using unmetered electric to a finite purchase.
The CG knows that every RV'ers electric use will be different.
A van will likely use less than a 36' class A.
A casita will use less than a 36'TT yet they all pay the same 30 amp rate. The difference in actual cost at the end of the day is negligible. Some will use more some will use less but the CG will be covered.Nope. You are not totally reading what I have been saying. IF a campground charges more for 50 amp than 30 amp.... And you make some sort of effort to be able to draw MORE than 30 amps, when you are paying for 30 amps....That is theft. It matters not if your site is metered or not. TH CG owner has a right to expect that a 30 amp rig will use no more than 30 amps.
Several here have done mods, or talked about sneaking another cord to enable them to use more elec, than 30 amps. I have been consistent this entire thread on this... But so many seem not to understand it, or want to justify what they are doing as to make arguments leaving out the pertinent parts of my statements.... They are just trying to muddy the water so they can feel OK with using more than they are paying for. Or they have a reading comprehension problem.
A better example is take the high school football team to the all you can eat buffet and take the ballerina squad to the buffet. I'm sure the football team is going to eat a whole lot more, but is that theft? Of course not. The owner has calculated how much food the average user will heat and set a profitable price.
Sure my teenage son is going to eat 4 plate full, but there is a grandmother out there that will barely eat anything. There will be a few customers (football players) that you lose on and a few (grandmothers) that you win on. Overall the price is set to ensure profit.

For every space heater electric hog, there is a van using 15 amp or a tent on a 30 amp site using minimal electric.
CG's know that over the course of a short term stay they can estimate the usage apply a rate plus some and not worry about electric use.
Do you really think CG owners are just gullible and are letting campers steal their electric as you imply?
Now for longer stays and seasonal sites you often see metered electric because over a longer stay it becomes harder to estimate usage.
The CG's understand what they are doing. Those that feel campers are taking advantage enact no heater rules. Mc fxost CG's it's easier to just raise the daily rate to cover the cost of electric. Than to
There will always be a variable associated with electric usage, a heat wave or a cold spell will have an impact, the types of RV's renting sites will have an impact.
RV appliance use will have a minimal impact. Do we need to charge more for multi battery RV's? How about those with Ice makers. Do we get into residential fridges.Electric water heaters vs.lp.
What is the base electric usage? Without meters the CG doesn't really know. But more importantly they don't really care. They set a profitable rate and don't worry about it.
Maybe they should hire "space heater police" to weed out the thieves.

[pianotuna]

Lantley,

Residencial fridges are way better for the campground owner than absorption units.

[dieseltruckdriv]

Huntindog wrote:

dieseltruckdriver wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
Not at all.
I think that whatever your 30 amp service can provide is justified.
But some seem the think that running another cord from a seperate outlet is OK.... I do not. Some even have gone to the trouble of adding a seperate way to get the power into their 30 amp unit... That in my eyes is theft. Often the park operator will just overlook it, as they do not want a confrontation. It is kind of like shoplifting. Everyone pays for it in the form of higher prices.
50 amp service generally costs more, as the park understands the electricity use will be higher

Well I have a separate outlet just for a space heater that plugs in to the 15 amp outlet. I have never been to a place that charges different fees for 30 or 50 amp service.

So explain how having that outlet that makes me a thief. I do it to ease the load on the rv wiring.

Broad generalizations really shouldn't be made.

When you do such a mod to "ease" the load on your TTs 30 amp service,,,, It allows you to consume more than 30 amps...If and only IF the electric cost is the same at the park for 30 or 50 amp, then this would be OK.. It just means that the park has decided to make their 30 amp customers subsidize their 50 amp customers.
But don't pull out the generalization line.

We all know that electricity costs money. 50 amp service costs more than 30 amp service. Somebody will pay for it. The park is not in business to be a charity for those that try to cheat.

You ARE making VERY broad generalizations.

Why do you assume that every 30 amp rv is using a full 30 amps. I have never used 30 amps. I know because I use much more power in the summer, and I have never tripped my or a campground breaker. People don't trip the breakers in general, meaning they are NOT using the full amount of their 30 or 50 amp rig.

By the way, I deal with peak power rates at work daily, and being a controls person, I make sure the power demands stay within our peak limits. So I do understand what you are saying, I just think you are being overly harsh and making some large assumptions. No one is going to run their rigs at the ragged edge of tripping breakers.

Or maybe you are running a campground that is going broke, and are looking for scapegoats? THAT IS JUST A JOKE!!!!!

[toedtoes]

I agree with Lantley. I have a class C. I don't have a tv, microwave, slow cooker, instant pot, coffee maker, hair dryer, curling iron, dvd player, etc. My electrical use when dry camping is limited to one or two lights on for a max of maybe 1 hour per day average and charging my phone and kindle and fire. If I go somplace with hookups, I add the electric heater use if it's cold enough.

Just because I use an electric heater doesn't mean I'm using more electricity than I'm "supposed" to use.

There are many folks who will use a lot more electricity even without a heater. And what about those folks running their AC? Are they stealing?