Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

[ognend]

Hello all!

Can someone clarify something for me? If a truck's max gooseneck trailer loaded weight is 15,100 lbs (as per manufacturer towing guide - it is a Ford) - how can the max cargo weight rating be 1792 lbs?

If I understand correctly, the max cargo weight rating is all the weight that can be put into/onto the truck (passengers, their things) PLUS the, for example, weight of the gooseneck pin of the loaded, 15,100 lbs trailer.

Ford's towing guide says: "Cargo Weight Rating shown in chart is maximum allowable, assuming weight of a base vehicle with required camper option content and a 150-lb. passenger at each available seating position".

Does this mean the allowed payload is AFTER 5 passengers? if I removed 3 passengers, does that add 450 lbs to payload capacity (max allowed cargo weight as per Ford)?

In addition, what gooseneck trailer weighs 15,100 lbs (max loaded trailer weight spec as per Ford) but only 1792 on the hitch (as per max allowed cargo weight)? This would imply that only 12% of the loaded trailer weight is on the hitch. Does this sound right?
I know this is not the case for my loaded horse trailer with living quarters (but then horse trailers with living quarters tend to be front heavy).

Am I understanding this right?

Thanks!

[MikeRP]

I agree Grit Dog and also I have two new 2019 trucks where Ford limited the RAWR and the payload due to the tire weight rating. They could have easily rated the payload over 4000 lbs instead of 3400 and also I think they will always place the RAWR below the tire ratings.

Sometimes I think they look at the payload on the F-450 and thats around 4800 lbs. We all know that truck can haul significantly more. But some might say "well my single wheel truck is rated for 4200 lbs why would I need an F450?"

If you put super singles on my Ram I could show 5000 lbs of payload. Bottom line is 2500 trucks are seriously capable and my view on the payload is that the weight doesn't always go down, it can go up after purchase.

And for all you weight police out there, Lawyers lawyer. I once heard a lawyer give a great speech about a dump truck accident. Then the other side gave an equally convincing argument to the layman. The first lawyer lost the case forthwith. Judge was not impressed.

My lawyer can argue that the person who upgraded his truck did so in a prudent manner.

HOWEVER, 99% of accidents in the RV community iare not about being over GVWR but speed, assured clear distance, tire failure, weather, other drivers actions etc. Much easier to take the case on those facts than figure out actual weight after an accident.

Also Ive seen plenty of accidents where a dually is upside down. If you go off road and that fifth wheel starts to go, hang on you are going with it dually or SRW.

Its scary but true.

[Grit_dog]

While I think even the OP is after just the diatribe of the conversation now, and is or has not actually looked into it further than just this thread he created, I can understand how the concept of mfgs load rating vs real world capability is lost on many.
Not everyone spends their lives around trucks and using them in multitude of applications. Not everyone actually "cares' about the numbers within the numbers.
So with those things, it's hard to get past what the "authority" on the subject, the mfg, says, might not be true. Understandably.

For this, I offer, take your tape measure and brain down to the ole car dealer some night or a Sunday, when the salesmen won't bombard you. Look at a 1 ton, look at a 3/4 ton. Frame, brakes, wheels, tires, axles, etc and you'll see that a very similarly designed vehicle, sometimes virtually identical, somehow has a significantly different payload rating.
Then process that info.
Does the mfg use cheaper steel in the 3/4 tons even though the dimensions are the same? Nope not likely.
Does the mfg use a brake system with less "pressure" on a 3/4 ton, even thought hey look the same? Nope again.
Does the mfg make the same looking 8 lug wheels thinner if they're on a 3/4 ton? Again, let common sense prevail.
Are the rear springs different? Ding ding sing, we have a winner!
THAT is the difference. Springs and sticker. End of story, literally.

(Caveat, some other nuances may be present depending on brand, but you'll get the jist of it.)

[Cummins12V98]

Jerry you painted a vivid and beautiful picture with your explanation. :B

[MFL]

OP...If you go back, read mine and others posts, in this now 18 page thread, and this same question answered in never ending other threads, the answer of where does this sticker number come from has been said many times!

To make this easy, one more time! The employee at the end of the production line (call him a FORD ENGINEER), takes your new truck over to the factory scale, weighs it, with all options installed, ready to be shipped. Your truck weighs 7,853 lbs. The sticker man (ENGINEER) looks at the sheet, or placard on the fender...F250...class 2 GVWR 10,000. The sticker man gets his calculator out 10,000 minus 7,853 equals 2,147. Now he goes to the sticker machine punches in the numbers, out comes the sticker, that he applies. This truck is now ready to ship. No magic, no it will not break if you go over this class 2 rating! Stay within your axle/tire ratings which do have a real meaning, as to the truck's capability, as shipped.

Jerry

[ognend]

Huntindog wrote:

Just make up your own sticker and slap it over Fords and call it good. Looking online for someone to tell you it is OK..... Is hilarious. There will ALWAYS be someone that will agree with you.... But the ones that COUNT, are the Ford engineers. You say you are an engineer. So get a job with Ford and see if you can straighten them out.

But see, I am not looking for someone to agree with me. To be honest, it would be nice to understand (for example), how the payload number has actually been arrived at. I asked you this in a previous reply - do you know? Is it a number (2184lbs in my case) that has been "made to fit" into the 10,000 lbs GVWR because of legal interpretations and the class of vehicle sold (3/4 ton truck) or is it the actual components and their combinations that make up this number. Can you actually answer that question? You keep telling me to join Ford to answer it - but can YOU actually answer it? If you can't - why are you still in this discussion? That's an honest question 🙂

Another question: what is the relevance of 6100 lbs RAWR rating published on the same sticker? Can you answer that question?

Why would I need to join Ford? I am not looking to strengthen a truck :). In fact, with the prices of used vehicles right now, I could easily sell this Ford for $50K (Kelley Blue book says $51K in private sale) and buy the new 7.3L gasser Ford or the 6.6L new Chevy gasser 3/4 ton truck and "instantly" get an official payload sticker of 3500-3700 lbs - for the weight I am towing, they would be perfectly adequate! I would STILL have the same questions, however - how were these numbers arrived at and are they real numbers dictated by components? Yes, there is some part of this equation of selling in a private sale and buying new (the hassle of doing all of these) that maybe I don't want to go through - so I am trying to figure out if whatever I have will work for my application - before I put myself through it all.

Thanks.

[Huntindog]

ognend wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
Sounds to me like you should get a job with Ford. Then you would be able to properly rate their vehicles.
I bet they would love to have you on board.

Sounds to me like you actually have nothing to offer in this discussion. I have not seen you say anything of consequence except offer short zingers, thinking they are funny.

What is happening here is funnier than anything I could make up.
You do not like your payload rating that Ford assigned your vehicle (reading some of your past posts, it is obvious that you do not like this vehicle) so you want to make up your own.
Just make up your own sticker and slap it over Fords and call it good. Looking online for someone to tell you it is OK..... Is hilarious. There will ALWAYS be someone that will agree with you.... But the ones that COUNT, are the Ford engineers. You say you are an engineer. So get a job with Ford and see if you can straighten them out.

ognend wrote:
Here is my problem. I spent $57,000 on a brand new 2016 Ford plus $2,500 extended Ford bumper-bumper warranty to 75,000 miles (which is coming up for either renewal, losing weight or getting rid of it).

I bought the truck brand new. At 4,000 miles it had the emissions TSB 16-0041 - three days of work, pulling cab of, valve work etc. At 15,000 miles a new water pump. At 18,000 miles the back seat open/close rusted off. At 30,000 miles sensor left lean bank issue (needed reprogramming). At 40,000 miles slow coolant leak that nobody can find and I am now at 52,000 miles, wondering what will come next in terms of repairs.

I lost trust in the "Super Duty" thing and the new stuff, sorry, super duty my arse. I don't understand how it works, without a warranty - every repair is an arm and a leg and even with an extra warranty - sometimes they can't even find the problem (like my phantom coolant leak) so I am now left to run around and look for someone interested in spending the hours to find the leak (which they don't seem to be).

So, I have some choices to make:

1) spend more more on more warranty + spend more of my time running around different dealers and shops and hope someone finds the problem (and my time is worth something too, ya know)

2) or I could delete it (assuming I fix the leak problem), which is illegal, but people advise it as the holy grail that will fix everything in the long run, which I doubt, but I still have to spend >$2K on doing so and I will still not understand anything about this truck and the delete will void any warranty anyway so every new repair is out of pocket and they ain't cheap on these

3) sell the truck (I own it outright) and write another check to buy another new, shiny thing and take another chance on a new diesel or a new gasser or

4) go back in time and learn how to fix the darn things myself and own something I understand and can work on all day long, plus selling my 6.7L for $42-43,000 it is worth now, I think I can go out and get a nice, old truck in good shape and still have money left over to change the engine and transmission 4x over. (At this point, I feel like Ford has extracted enough money out of me. I have no guarantee that a new Ford, or for that matter a new RAM or a new Duramax will do me any better.)

No, this new mythical truck that will solve all my problems doesn't have to be too old - like the IDI I am looking at, of course - which is where I appreciate your advice!

[Huntindog]

ognend wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
Sounds to me like you should get a job with Ford. Then you would be able to properly rate their vehicles.
I bet they would love to have you on board.

Sounds to me like you actually have nothing to offer in this discussion. I have not seen you say anything of consequence except offer short zingers, thinking they are funny.

What is happening here is funnier than anything I could make up.
You do not like your payload rating that Ford assigned your vehicle (reading some of your past posts, it is obvious that you do not like this vehicle) so you want to make up your own.
Just make up your own sticker and slap it over Fords and call it good. Looking online for someone to tell you it is OK..... Is hilarious. There will ALWAYS be someone that will agree with you.... But the ones that COUNT, are the Ford engineers. You say you are an engineer. So get a job with Ford and see if you can straighten them out.

[ognend]

Huntindog wrote:
Sounds to me like you should get a job with Ford. Then you would be able to properly rate their vehicles.
I bet they would love to have you on board.

Sounds to me like you actually have nothing to offer in this discussion. I have not seen you say anything of consequence except offer short zingers, thinking they are funny.

[Huntindog]

ognend wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

ogend wrote:
(for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?).

The answer is so obvious that even a Caveman/Engineer can get it.

If they picked 10,500, then people would be complaining, saying "Why 10,500 instead of 10,000.

They needed to pick a number, so they did. End of story.

Yes but see an engineer would then wonder whether the numbers on the stickers (like payload capacity) are "engineered" to fit the 10,000 lbs (as in on paper) or if the components are actually engineered to fit the 10,000 number or...? In other words - are you actually physically building components/systems to fit within a number or are you slapping numbers on stickers just to make the numbers fit (regardless of what the actual components are)?

The caveman, on the other hand, would just jump to the "end of story" conclusion, yeah?

So, do you actually know the answer to the question above or are you just here to have some fun? 😉

P.S. I should say that I came here wondering about legal limits and definitions but ended up more interested in what my truck can handle - supported by actual engineering/numbers.

Sounds to me like you should get a job with Ford. Then you would be able to properly rate their vehicles.
I bet they would love to have you on board.

[ognend]

Huntindog wrote:

ogend wrote:
(for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?).

The answer is so obvious that even a Caveman/Engineer can get it.

If they picked 10,500, then people would be complaining, saying "Why 10,500 instead of 10,000.

They needed to pick a number, so they did. End of story.

Yes but see an engineer would then wonder whether the numbers on the stickers (like payload capacity) are "engineered" to fit the 10,000 lbs (as in on paper) or if the components are actually engineered to fit the 10,000 number or...? In other words - are you actually physically building components/systems to fit within a number or are you slapping numbers on stickers just to make the numbers fit (regardless of what the actual components are)?

The caveman, on the other hand, would just jump to the "end of story" conclusion, yeah?

So, do you actually know the answer to the question above or are you just here to have some fun? 😉

P.S. I should say that I came here wondering about legal limits and definitions but ended up more interested in what my truck can handle - supported by actual engineering/numbers.

[Huntindog]

ogend wrote:
(for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?).

The answer is so obvious that even a Caveman/Engineer can get it.

If they picked 10,500, then people would be complaining, saying "Why 10,500 instead of 10,000.

They needed to pick a number, so they did. End of story.

[ognend]

philh wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

philh wrote:
don't like the number on the door sticker, you just get to pick a new number? Interesting way of dealing with payload capacity.

And this is an overtly ignorant statement, obviously backed by your lack of knowledge about vehicle construction and specifications.

ROFLMAO,

<-- multi decade OEM Sr Engineer, currently working on powertrains.

See, I am picking a number because I do not understand the way my payload capacity number was picked in the first place. How did Ford arrive at 2184 lbs and not 2180 or 2190 or 2185? If they published ALL the factors that go into coming up with this number, I would not have to pick it, would I? If you can explain the process, please do. Thanks!

P.S. I am an engineer as well and I know that many times numbers are not arrived at solely based on components - there is a lot of legal implications to what things are published and why (for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?).

Also, why publish a RAWR number if all I am supposed to look at is a payload capacity number? Is the latter for legal purposes only (to fit into the 10,000 GVWR calculation) or is it an actual calculation based on components, tolerances etc.? Or am I just blindly to assume things? If I am going to own a $60,000 piece of hardware, do I not have the right to know EXACTLY how a certain number was arrived at? Or do I just get to be laughed at by some jumped up engineer who thinks that we are all too dumb to understand things so (s)he will not bother to explain the process? I guess I am not too dumb to pay $60K for a vehicle but too dumb to understand the calculations? Thanks!

[philh]

Grit dog wrote:

philh wrote:
don't like the number on the door sticker, you just get to pick a new number? Interesting way of dealing with payload capacity.

And this is an overtly ignorant statement, obviously backed by your lack of knowledge about vehicle construction and specifications.

ROFLMAO,

<-- multi decade OEM Sr Engineer, currently working on powertrains.

[ognend]

Huntindog wrote:

ognend wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
If 36# is that important to you.... You need a bigger truck.

I don't understand. Why do I need a bigger truck? 🙂

Trust me on this.

I genuinely do not understand. What are you trying to say? If you have nothing of consequence to contribute here or you are not willing to state it clearly, why are you wasting everyone's time? Start your own thread? 🙂

[Huntindog]

ognend wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
If 36# is that important to you.... You need a bigger truck.

I don't understand. Why do I need a bigger truck? 🙂

Trust me on this.