TT’s. How long is too long?

[waynec1957]

I looked through the old threads and didn’t find any that addressed this specific issue, so I thought I’d start one.

There was a discussion in another thread about one of Jayco’s new Eagle Premier travel trailers that comes in at 39’ (give or take). The size of the unit came up a couple times (with a lot of focus on the tongue weight), but my question is more about the overall length of the unit (or one similar). Our current TT is right at 30’ and we’ve been looking at new TTs between 35’ and 40’ anywhere from 7,500 to around 9,000 lbs. dry weight.

I just bought a new TV (the one in the signature) that has a wheelbase of 153.7” and an overall length of 240.2”. It has a heavy duty towing package (2 ½” receiver with a 1,500 lb. tongue weight), front gross axle weight rating of 5,200 lbs., rear GAWR 6,200 lbs., 6.6 Duramax/Allison, payload just over 3,000 lbs., max conventional trailer rating of 13,000 and GCWR of 24,500 lbs. So I’m not overly concerned that the truck won’t get anything we’ve looked at down the road fairly comfortably under normal conditions if it’s set up properly.

However, two things bother me once we get up close to that 40’ mark. One, is the wheelbase on the truck adequate for a TT this long or am I asking for problems? Two, (and I think I know the answer to this) am I going to have problems fitting something this big in a lot of campsites?

I’d love to hear from folks who tow TTs in this range.

Thanks

Wayne

[Grodyman]

30' is my magic number.

Gman

[waynec1957]

That's a pretty slick set-up with the floor jack. I like that feature.

I was going to ask you, since you're using that Reese hitch...did you cringe a little when the holes were drilled in your TT frame for those cam supports? And you ever had any issues with those self tapping bolts?

[JBarca]

waynec1957 wrote:


Ideally, I'd like to keep all the weights (TW, GCVWR, payload, etc.) somewhere around 80-85% of the max which should give me and the equipment a nice cushion. I never would have thought about that had I not read what these good folks had experienced.

Something I stumbled across and wondered if anyone had any experience with was a portable trailer tongue weight scale
http://www.sherline.com/lm.htm

If they work, it might be a handy tool to have

Yes, reserve capacity is your friend. These "bricks" we haul down the road have a lot of wind drag and is very noticeable above 45mph. The frontal area of the TT exposed to the wind eats up tow ratings. The bigger the area or the faster the speed the more reserve you use.

60 sq feet of frontal area is recognized by some manufacture where "performance" can be affected. Ford says this and other mfg's too. Just they never declare how much performance is lost... They are letting you know, there will be a loss and we told you so...

They also do not have a separate tow rating for a boat, open flat deck trailer, 6 foot wide cargo trailer or the 8 foot wide 11.5" tall bricks we tow. Or a open utility trailer with a high grate ramp sticking up 6 to 7 feet in the air... amazing the power they eat, empty even. So the experienced RV'er after learning the hard way or being fortunate enough to have a buddy help them, they can overcome the under powered TV. Can it pull it and can it pull it pleasurably are 2 different statements.

So keep your reserve and have a pleasurably tow in any set of conditions, up or down hill.

The Sherline, yes I have one and a good thing to have. They should be included in any new camper as part of the deal. And along with an explanation on why good TW percentage is so important for towing and how to help you load the floor plan you just bought so that it comes out that way. And...so you buy the right size WD bars the first time.

Here is mine during the loading process. That pic was a few pounds ago...

[Lantley]

I have a tongue weight scale. The Sherline was very useful tool when I had my TT. I used it regularly to check and adjust the TW.

[waynec1957]

JBarca wrote:

waynec1957 wrote:
I appreciate all the feedback. This is an example of the fact RV people are among the most helpful people out there. I’ll keep checking back as we continue our search.

snip..

So…to the original question of how long is too long, I guess there’s more to consider here than just length. In our case, given what we’re looking for, longer is also going to mean heavier and at least to some degree more difficult to maneuver.

We bought this new TV because our other set-up was way too taxing on me and the truck plus we were too limited in what we could upgrade to. I’m not getting any younger and have my limits (which has to factor into this) and this new TV has limits (as John correctly points out). There’s no reason to push me or the truck any harder than necessary. Based on the input you’ve all given here, we’re going to visit a couple of RV shows over the winter, do some more looking, and see what we come up with.

Yes, you right. Camper folks are a good bunch. Never had a problem striking up a conversation with my fellow camper neighbor in a CG. And any one of them would be glad to help if ever asked. Many would help even without asking. The world would be a better place if more would go camping.

Now to your new camper, the good news is this is not your 1st time buy and you are a whole lot more educated the 2nd time around. Your doing the right thing, trying to educate yourself to help make the right choice, for you and DW.

Keeping an open mind, listen and then make up your own mind. A lot of our opinions may not even apply to your situation, however if they make you think about it and maybe point out a few things you didn't think of, well, your ahead of the game.

Good luck with the hunt.

John

PS. Since you are into the numbers, find a truck scale in your area, fill up the truck with fuel and get a real front and rear axle weight. Now you know what truck options add up to. It is not that hard to be off 200 to 300# from online weight calculators. In case you did not know, GM has one of the better ways to get close to a truck weight, try here GM trucks

Go, year, light cars/trucks ordering info,
Then click on the truck bowtie symbol,
Then in the top far right under model, select your truck from the pull down list.
Then go to model and weights (bottom left) and fill out all the options. Come to the end and it gives you axle weights for all the options.

Or pay ~ $8 at a truck stop scale and get certified real weights

You're right John. This time around I know more what to look for than the last time. The only thing I had ever pulled before the TT we have now, aside from the occasional utility trailer or some other piece of equipment, was a 16' pop-up.

Honestly, I didn't know squat about pulling anything bigger until I started reading these forums a few years ago. That's when I started paying attention to the numbers. It's tedious sometimes, but like Lantley says, it'll pay off in the long run.

Ideally, I'd like to keep all the weights (TW, GCVWR, payload, etc.) somewhere around 80-85% of the max which should give me and the equipment a nice cushion. I never would have thought about that had I not read what these good folks had experienced.

Something I stumbled across and wondered if anyone had any experience with was a portable trailer tongue weight scale
http://www.sherline.com/lm.htm

If they work, it might be a handy tool to have

[Bluejay_Ford]

When I’m buying a trailer, I take into consideration where it is that I will be camping. For me, I prefer to stay at of between the 28’ to 32’ range because we camp a lot at Wisconsin state campgrounds and National Parks. Both of these types of facilities make it pretty hard to back in a 35 to 40 foot trailer into narrow 90 degree back inns. If you have a large enough truck and plan on staying at private facilities that have pull-throughs, trailer lengths may not matter.

[JBarca]

waynec1957 wrote:
I appreciate all the feedback. This is an example of the fact RV people are among the most helpful people out there. I’ll keep checking back as we continue our search.

snip..

So…to the original question of how long is too long, I guess there’s more to consider here than just length. In our case, given what we’re looking for, longer is also going to mean heavier and at least to some degree more difficult to maneuver.

We bought this new TV because our other set-up was way too taxing on me and the truck plus we were too limited in what we could upgrade to. I’m not getting any younger and have my limits (which has to factor into this) and this new TV has limits (as John correctly points out). There’s no reason to push me or the truck any harder than necessary. Based on the input you’ve all given here, we’re going to visit a couple of RV shows over the winter, do some more looking, and see what we come up with.

Yes, you right. Camper folks are a good bunch. Never had a problem striking up a conversation with my fellow camper neighbor in a CG. And any one of them would be glad to help if ever asked. Many would help even without asking. The world would be a better place if more would go camping.

Now to your new camper, the good news is this is not your 1st time buy and you are a whole lot more educated the 2nd time around. Your doing the right thing, trying to educate yourself to help make the right choice, for you and DW.

Keeping an open mind, listen and then make up your own mind. A lot of our opinions may not even apply to your situation, however if they make you think about it and maybe point out a few things you didn't think of, well, your ahead of the game.

Good luck with the hunt.

John

PS. Since you are into the numbers, find a truck scale in your area, fill up the truck with fuel and get a real front and rear axle weight. Now you know what truck options add up to. It is not that hard to be off 200 to 300# from online weight calculators. In case you did not know, GM has one of the better ways to get close to a truck weight, try here GM trucks

Go, year, light cars/trucks ordering info,
Then click on the truck bowtie symbol,
Then in the top far right under model, select your truck from the pull down list.
Then go to model and weights (bottom left) and fill out all the options. Come to the end and it gives you axle weights for all the options.

Or pay ~ $8 at a truck stop scale and get certified real weights

[jmtandem]

Throw that 2,000 lb. plus (dry—not loaded) hitch weight for the fiver in the bed (plus a couple grandkids in the backseat) and we’re right on the brink (or overloaded)—unless I’m figuring this wrong. Assuming payload is calculated at the factory with a 150 lb. driver and 250 lbs of fuel, we can add 400 lbs. of payload back in, but that still leaves a LOT more leeway with the TT.

A TT hitch is about 100 pounds, a fifth wheel hitch is about 200-250 pounds. The hitch weight plus the pin weight almost requires a one ton truck for any large size fifth wheel.

[dadmomh]

Understand that the Cleveland RV Show in January is excellent. You may find the perfect trailer sitting right there. Take your list of wants, don't wants, don't care. Also, have your tow vehicle info in hand and when the salesman tells you that you can tow much more - like the one he's trying to sell you right then - just walk on. You might also spend some online time with RVW or RVD and even ask for price quotes. Whether or not you buy from either of them, it's a good bargaining tool. And try not to let your heart rule your head, but have fun! Happy shopping!

[Lantley]

Sounds like you've digested the info given and are taking the right approach.
It does take time to examine all the angles. your patient slow analytical approach will payoff in the end.
Getting that perfect unit is challenging, even after all the internal and external debate there will be compromise. Good Luck in a the search is always part of the fun!

[waynec1957]

I appreciate all the feedback. This is an example of the fact RV people are among the most helpful people out there. I’ll keep checking back as we continue our search.

For djgarcia, we’ve looked at 5th wheels really hard and we haven’t completely ruled them out. The biggest factor for us was price. To get what we wanted (the must haves) in a 5th wheel versus what we found in some TTs, in some cases the cost was double unless we went preowned. Then there’s also the issue of payload when it comes to hitch weights for 5th wheels. Almost everything we’ve looked at that we liked and has what we want is in the 2,000 lb. plus (dry) hitch range. With a payload of just over 3,000 lbs. that doesn’t leave much leeway. One of the advantages though, as you said, is a 35’ fiver only has about 31’ in back of the truck.

To John’s point, one of the TTs we’ve looked at (one of the top contenders) is just over 35’, has a dry weight between 7,500 – 8,000 lbs. (depending on options), a dry TW in the 1,000 to 1,200 lb. range, and a GVWR of 10,000 to 10,500 lbs. Maxed out (the way I figure it), that’s a loaded TW of around 1,500 lbs. (give or take).

Our TV has a payload of 3,000 lbs. One of the reasons I went with a 2 WD is we gained about 300 lbs. here over a 4x4, since as John points out the Duramax eats payload. So, on the high side, adding up a full tank of fuel, me, and the other half that’s about 700 lbs. (me and the fuel making up most of that). Now we’re down to 2,300 lbs. of payload, not counting other “stuff”. Subtract the maxed out tongue weight of the TT and there’s about 800 lbs of leeway. Throw that 2,000 lb. plus (dry—not loaded) hitch weight for the fiver in the bed (plus a couple grandkids in the backseat) and we’re right on the brink (or overloaded)—unless I’m figuring this wrong. Assuming payload is calculated at the factory with a 150 lb. driver and 250 lbs of fuel, we can add 400 lbs. of payload back in, but that still leaves a LOT more leeway with the TT.

Just to be clear, this is all based on comparing a 5th wheel and a TT that are more or less interchangeable as far as the floor plans and features we want.

So…to the original question of how long is too long, I guess there’s more to consider here than just length. In our case, given what we’re looking for, longer is also going to mean heavier and at least to some degree more difficult to maneuver.

We bought this new TV because our other set-up was way too taxing on me and the truck plus we were too limited in what we could upgrade to. I’m not getting any younger and have my limits (which has to factor into this) and this new TV has limits (as John correctly points out). There’s no reason to push me or the truck any harder than necessary. Based on the input you’ve all given here, we’re going to visit a couple of RV shows over the winter, do some more looking, and see what we come up with.

[JBarca]

waynec1957 wrote:

Reese makes a straight-line trunnion system that can utilize a 2 1/2 shank up to 1,700 lb. TW but I haven't seen too much on it yet. So any suggestions on that would be appreciated too.

I have one and have been towing with current setup since 2007. Same main hitch and the actual DC since 2003, just lighter WD bars.

The hitch is a good hitch and IMHO the best you are going to get in the ultra friction type of WD hitches with built in anti sway. That said the hitch itself will not solve all towing problems. Think of it as a good tool to help get the job done. On the 30 foot plus TT's proper TW per loaded GVW of the TT is a must (13 to 15% is better) as well as the hitch setup and then even truck tire pressure and what type of tires are on the truck.

Your new truck is night and day different then your prior one. It is hands down a good pulling truck. However, it is not invincible nor is mine. The Dmax eats up payload and when you are looking at 9,000# dry GVW TT's you can be using up all of the truck available payload capacity when a heavy TW comes along. It is not that it won't do it or can't do it, it is that it can be on the edge or over pending the loaded TW with "stuff" in the truck bed.

That said, for my camper TW and my bed weight, I'm glad I went 1 ton SRW. When I was looking the only gasser 3/4 ton that had the payload and pull ratings I was after was the 2500HD with the 8.1 big block. The lighter engine allowed me more payload. The F250PDS or the 2500HD DMAX I would run out of payload. I'm just bringing this up to help you sort out your choices as after looking over everything, it might push you more into a 35 foot that can have a GVWR of 10,000# to 10,500# but it is starting out with a 7,500# or so dry weight. It is not hard on a 30 to 35 ft TT to add close to 3,000# of stuff especially if you need to haul fresh water. I have managed to do this....

Good luck and glad to answer any more questions on the Straight line etc.

John

[MarkTwain]

One of the advantages of the 5th. wheel, as far as length, is that approx. 4' of the trailer length sits in the bed of the truck. So my 34' 5th. wheel is actually only 30' long as far as parking, towing, driving into stations to get fuel:)

[waynec1957]

dadmomh wrote:
On a MUCH smaller scale, we just moved from our 23' HTT to a 26+' TT. Towing with an F-150 CC with factory tow, 5.4. Of the places we've camped over the 7+ seasons we had our HTT, I can think of only 1 that would accommodate something as large as a 39'. Even the small additional space we are at now, meant our fav site at our fav CG is a real PITA to get into, when it used to be a snap. We never expected to move from our HTT to the TT, but old age crept up when we weren't looking and this is much easier to setup. We love it and it's really perfect for the 2 of us, but allows for occasional guests with a sofa bed with air mattress. This really is our last TT.

My dear cousin started with an Outback, than a small A, then a bigger A, then a much bigger A and now a 45' monster A. He's happy with his status in life. His DW is miserable because they can't go much of anywhere and really CAMP. I don't consider KOA or similar "camping" and she agrees. Not only is the length a problem, but height with overhanging trees, as mentioned earlier. No narrow, winding roads to get to some CG with lots of trees and great views. We're having a family reunion this summer at LBL and there are sites that he COULD get this monster into, but not maneuver the CG road to get to the site, so they're several miles away at KOA.

Just from reading similar posts, it seems like the 32 - 35' range allows for most of the amenities wanted, plenty of interior space and still lets you get there from here without a problem. I could see the 39'+ a tow vehicle as being a bit tricky in even a Pilot, Flying J, etc that are set up for larger vehicles. That said, it really depends on how you camp and what your needs are.

I knew I'd get some food for thought when I asked this question.

Getting there is half the fun sometimes. Over in East Tenn., we like to go to Big Ridge State Park (East of Lake City). I have family not too far from there.

That stretch of road (61) between I-75 and the park has a couple places where it could be tough getting a 40' camper plus a 20' truck around those cutbacks. Going south from the park to 33...forget it.

Big Ridge is one of out favorite spots and every camper we've looked at I mentally try to picture getting it there. Once you get to the park, the campsites are easy to get in and out of.