Want to race a Tesla semi around a test track?

[John___Angela]

Here's your chance. But you have to make a certain amount of referrals first. 🙂

https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2018/02/01/referral-program-adds-chance-to-race-a-tesla-semi/

[John___Angela]

rjstractor wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
I’m kinda wondering if Tesla is using the same business approach to the semi truck side of the business as he is to the car side of the business when it comes to charging infrastructure. What I mean by this is: Right now if you look at the plug share App and look at the new charging sites that have come on line in the last few hours probably 75 percent of those are Tesla sites. Some of these are Superchargers but most are level two chargers that businesses and hotels and restaurants and parking plazas are installing. It varies depending on time of day and time zone etc but just looking at the last few hours it looks like about 100 new charge stations have come on line in the world. Hard to count because it keeps scrolling as new ones are added but I would bet 70 to 75 are Tesla. So here is an example of how it affects buying decisions. We are a few years away from replacing our Nissan Leaf. Great car and does what we need, but when we retire in a few years we want something different. We really like the new hatchback Leaf and are comparing it to the Tesla Model 3 sedan. We actually lean towards the Leaf for a few reasons. But at this point would probably buy the more expensive Tesla Model 3 for one reason. The charging infrastructure is just simply so much better. There are 7000 ish pre-ordered leafs right now. There are literally hundreds of thousands of pre ordered Tesla Model 3’s. I would think some of those are because of the better infrastructure and certainly the TMC forum supports that.

So I am wondering if this also wouldn’t play out in the heavy and medium truck industry. The article talks about different companies collaboratings on the charging infrastructure. I can see this market approach working. Obviously there are a bunch of trucking companies testing the waters but I wonder if an established infrastructure will have an effect on purchase decision.

Time will tell. Interesting though.

I think how the charging infrastructure plays out for the trucking industry will depend on how the electric trucks are used. If they are used primarily for short delivery and line haul (which their current projected range suggests) then there isn't much need for a stand alone charging infrastructure- the trucks will charge at their home base. If they are used for over-the-road, then it makes sense for Tesla to partner with existing truck stops to install chargers. One consideration is that each semi requires 4 times as much parking space as a car.

I fully agree. here may be cooperation between companies as far as charging facilities but I don't think you will see them in North American truck stops soon.

Having said that, Tesla already has a relationship with European truck/rest stops. See the last picture above.

[rjstractor]

John & Angela wrote:
I’m kinda wondering if Tesla is using the same business approach to the semi truck side of the business as he is to the car side of the business when it comes to charging infrastructure. What I mean by this is: Right now if you look at the plug share App and look at the new charging sites that have come on line in the last few hours probably 75 percent of those are Tesla sites. Some of these are Superchargers but most are level two chargers that businesses and hotels and restaurants and parking plazas are installing. It varies depending on time of day and time zone etc but just looking at the last few hours it looks like about 100 new charge stations have come on line in the world. Hard to count because it keeps scrolling as new ones are added but I would bet 70 to 75 are Tesla. So here is an example of how it affects buying decisions. We are a few years away from replacing our Nissan Leaf. Great car and does what we need, but when we retire in a few years we want something different. We really like the new hatchback Leaf and are comparing it to the Tesla Model 3 sedan. We actually lean towards the Leaf for a few reasons. But at this point would probably buy the more expensive Tesla Model 3 for one reason. The charging infrastructure is just simply so much better. There are 7000 ish pre-ordered leafs right now. There are literally hundreds of thousands of pre ordered Tesla Model 3’s. I would think some of those are because of the better infrastructure and certainly the TMC forum supports that.

So I am wondering if this also wouldn’t play out in the heavy and medium truck industry. The article talks about different companies collaboratings on the charging infrastructure. I can see this market approach working. Obviously there are a bunch of trucking companies testing the waters but I wonder if an established infrastructure will have an effect on purchase decision.

Time will tell. Interesting though.

I think how the charging infrastructure plays out for the trucking industry will depend on how the electric trucks are used. If they are used primarily for short delivery and line haul (which their current projected range suggests) then there isn't much need for a stand alone charging infrastructure- the trucks will charge at their home base. If they are used for over-the-road, then it makes sense for Tesla to partner with existing truck stops to install chargers. One consideration is that each semi requires 4 times as much parking space as a car.

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I had just assumed that all the charging stations would work for all the EV's. I don't intend to buy one, but it's interesting to know.

It gets complicated because there are actually 3 competing standards and multiple use cases.

The vast majority of charging happens at home in the garage.
- If you just have a short commute and aren't stressing the range of the car, plugging into a standard 110v outlet when you get home works fine. Who cares if it takes 8hrs to top up?
- A lot of people bump up to a 220v dedicated outlet (think electric dryer outlet but with some tech features), so even if the car is low on juice, it's sure to be full in the morning.
- You can bump up to a dedicated high output charger but these things can draw some serious juice. This can be an issue. Say your house only has a 100amp feed, a 15amp outlet pulling 10amps is unlikely to trip the main breaker but adding a big charger, you may need to upgrade your main service panel (this has largely been mitigated to date as most EV's go to higher income families and they are more likely to live in a newer larger house with a bigger power feed to the house. If we ever see a mass market cost competitive car, that will bring on new challenges.)

If your work parking lot has a charging, it's really a similar use case, the car has lots of time to charge so no need for high power charging.

It's the stand alone charging stations where they get more exotic. Once you get past the enthusiasts, most people expect 5-10 minutes to fill up the gas tank. This is where the fast chargers come in. They still won't match a gas/diesel fuel pump for transferring energy into the car (figure 3-5 times as long or you can accept only a partial fillup if you are close to home). As with most new technologies, it takes time to sort out who will be the winners and losers (think of the old Beta vs VHS wars. The technologically best may not win.). Right now, there are 3 major players:
- CHAdeMO: which is a Japan heavy option. Supported by Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru & Toyota
- CCS: Supported by BMW, Dahmler, FCA, Ford, Hundai, GM & Volkswagon
- Tesla: supported by Tesla

Then you have the complication that all these technologies are evolving as they try to charge faster, so if you have an older EV, you may or may not be able to use the full capability of the latest charging stations (usually, you can use a lower output option).

In terms of field charging stations, Tesla may be in the lead but most of that is the others have't even bothered up until recently and its absolutely critical to Tesla's entire business model. If the other manufacturers get serious about producing EV's, I expect the Tesla charging format will be squashed.

If I had to speculate, I would say CCS. My thought is Europe is a far bigger market than Japan and has a much better use case for EV compared to the USA (shorter driving distances) and most of the European manufacturers are on team CCS (including the US owned EU brands). Of course, it could take 10-20yrs to sort out.

Good morning.

I would agree that CCS will eventually supplant Chademo but right now the majority of Chademo stations are dual connecter so both can connect...although not at the same time. I noticed Chevy has put in some CCS only machines at their dealerships. The EV community kinda frowns on this as they are limiting who can charge on them whereas Nissan tends to put in CCS/Chademo (not everywhere though).

The charge Landscape may look different in 5 years but as recently as 3 weeks ago GM made it very clear they were not getting into the Charging infrastructure issue. Nissan on the other hand is active in making certain corridors better and is partnering with various agencies in various areas. Probably because Nissan sells a lot more EV's than GM.

I think TESLA will stay on the top of the heap for awhile as they are still the biggest EV manufacturer. And at this point the only real serious North American contender.

JMHO

[valhalla360]

fj12ryder wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I had just assumed that all the charging stations would work for all the EV's. I don't intend to buy one, but it's interesting to know.

It gets complicated because there are actually 3 competing standards and multiple use cases.

The vast majority of charging happens at home in the garage.
- If you just have a short commute and aren't stressing the range of the car, plugging into a standard 110v outlet when you get home works fine. Who cares if it takes 8hrs to top up?
- A lot of people bump up to a 220v dedicated outlet (think electric dryer outlet but with some tech features), so even if the car is low on juice, it's sure to be full in the morning.
- You can bump up to a dedicated high output charger but these things can draw some serious juice. This can be an issue. Say your house only has a 100amp feed, a 15amp outlet pulling 10amps is unlikely to trip the main breaker but adding a big charger, you may need to upgrade your main service panel (this has largely been mitigated to date as most EV's go to higher income families and they are more likely to live in a newer larger house with a bigger power feed to the house. If we ever see a mass market cost competitive car, that will bring on new challenges.)

If your work parking lot has a charging, it's really a similar use case, the car has lots of time to charge so no need for high power charging.

It's the stand alone charging stations where they get more exotic. Once you get past the enthusiasts, most people expect 5-10 minutes to fill up the gas tank. This is where the fast chargers come in. They still won't match a gas/diesel fuel pump for transferring energy into the car (figure 3-5 times as long or you can accept only a partial fillup if you are close to home). As with most new technologies, it takes time to sort out who will be the winners and losers (think of the old Beta vs VHS wars. The technologically best may not win.). Right now, there are 3 major players:
- CHAdeMO: which is a Japan heavy option. Supported by Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru & Toyota
- CCS: Supported by BMW, Dahmler, FCA, Ford, Hundai, GM & Volkswagon
- Tesla: supported by Tesla

Then you have the complication that all these technologies are evolving as they try to charge faster, so if you have an older EV, you may or may not be able to use the full capability of the latest charging stations (usually, you can use a lower output option).

In terms of field charging stations, Tesla may be in the lead but most of that is the others have't even bothered up until recently and its absolutely critical to Tesla's entire business model. If the other manufacturers get serious about producing EV's, I expect the Tesla charging format will be squashed.

If I had to speculate, I would say CCS. My thought is Europe is a far bigger market than Japan and has a much better use case for EV compared to the USA (shorter driving distances) and most of the European manufacturers are on team CCS (including the US owned EU brands). Of course, it could take 10-20yrs to sort out.

[John___Angela]

Found a couple cool shots of Kettleman Supercharger on the web. The first three are of Ketlleman in California and the last of a Supercharger in Germany at a truckstop. We have driven by and looked at the Kettleman unit. These are not our pictures.





Coffee area.



German Truck/Rest stop

[John___Angela]

fj12ryder wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I had just assumed that all the charging stations would work for all the EV's. I don't intend to buy one, but it's interesting to know.

Happy to do it. Happier that I managed to get all those pictures sized right. Also made an edit to the Format name which is J1772 not J1702.

And yes if you want an EV that can charge almost anywhere it is a Tesla. Everyone else, not so much. Hence the Tesla advantage.

Cheers.

[fj12ryder]

Thanks for the clarification. I had just assumed that all the charging stations would work for all the EV's. I don't intend to buy one, but it's interesting to know.

[John___Angela]

Here is an example of two J1772 EVSE's side by side. These are in a public parking garage. They were both provided by Tesla free of charge. The parking garage had to run the 50 amp lines to each and pay for the install. These units retail for around 500 dollars each.

A tesla can hook up to either but needs to use an adapter to use the one on the left. I can also hook up to either with either of my cars but need an adapter to hook up to the one on the right which is called the Tesla wall charger or destination charger. Both of these output 240 volts AC to the car at up to 50 amps. The car determines the rate as the actual charger is on the car...eg...AC to DC converter.



This is a picture of my adapter I keep handy so I can hook to a Tesla destination charger. Really it doesn't happen that much (maybe twice in three years) but it is handy. The Level 2 build out worldwide is actually not bad although more is better of course. People don't really use level 3 (Fast DC charging) unless they are doing long road trips. That is there one and only purpose. Local travel and commuting is generally done at home with a personal level 2 or at level 2 destination chargers at hotels, restaurants, malls, casinos. public parking. You can also do level one which is the same thing as level 2 but with 120 volts and 12 amps max so slower.



This is a level 3 DC fast charger. These are combo units so they have CHADEMO and CCS connecters to handle all non Tesla cars. A Tesla can also use these with an adapter that comes with the car. This site is in Quebec and is co-located with a gas station and a "depanneur" which is a convenience store. There are actually four chargers here which is not always the case. Many are only single or dual units.



This is a bigger frame shot.



Here is a six site Tesla supercharger. As with the Chademo sites it is a level 3 DC charger. So with DC fast chargers the cars charger is bypassed and the DC output of the charger goes directly to the battery. But some of these Supercharger sites have 20 or 30 or even 50 charge stations as well as a coffee bar, pet walk area etc etc etc. Really way ahead of anyone else's offering.



Hope this adds some clarity to a potentially confusing topic to a non EVer. It's not really complicated and its all easy to deal with but you do things differently than when you own an ICE vehicle.

[John___Angela]

fj12ryder wrote:
Are you saying you can't charge your electric car at these charging station unless it's Tesla? So not only do you have limited range, but you have to make sure you can charge your vehicle at the nearest station. Kind of like being able to only fill a Dodge vehicle at a Shell station, and you need a Exon for your GM product. Incredible.

So yes and no. Yes, only Teslas can charge at a Tesla supercharger...eg...there brand of DC fast chargers otherwise known as Level three chargers. A tesla however can charge at any non Tesla DC fast charger as long as they have the Chademo adapter (the most common Non Tesla level 3 chargers in North America are Chademos.

Teslas can also charge at any level 2 station (Tesla or non Tesla) as long as they have the adapter (they come with the car.) Level 2 is what is known as destination charging, malls, hotels, restaurants your garage at home if it has 240 volts etc etc. It uses what is known as the J1772 format. All level two EVSE manufacturers for all EVS use this format so there is universality between all EVS but only at the level 2 infrastructure.

So no, because I can not charge either of my cars at any Tesla fast charger because the car doesn't speak the language and doesn't have a Tesla Serial number. Level 3 charging for me consists of the Chademo fast charging network that although is expanding is no where near as good as the Tesla network. I am able to use Tesla level 2 chargepoints with an adapter at hotels, malls,restaurants etc etc but it is considered a little rude because many times the equipment has been furnished by Tesla. Tesla is actually pretty good about this though as they also usually furnish a standard non Tesla J1702 plug as well. So for example if they provide two Tesla J1702 EVSE's to a hotel (at little or no charge) they usually provide one standard J 1772 EVSE. I can use any of the three but only one without an adapter as although the standard is the same the connecter is different. If you go to a golf course and there are 8 level 2 charge stations, typically 6 will be tesla and two non Tesla although Tesla usually furnished them all. NO OTHER MANUFACTURER DOES THIS.
This is why so many tip their hats to Tesla as they look at the EV world as a community that needs to share resources.

They have offered to all the car Manufacturers to take part in the supercharger network but none of the other manufacturers have done so to date.

I hope that explains it better, Ask away it if doesn't.

John

[fj12ryder]

Are you saying you can't charge your electric car at these charging station unless it's Tesla? So not only do you have limited range, but you have to make sure you can charge your vehicle at the nearest station. Kind of like being able to only fill a Dodge vehicle at a Shell station, and you need a Exon for your GM product. Incredible.

[John___Angela]

I’m kinda wondering if Tesla is using the same business approach to the semi truck side of the business as he is to the car side of the business when it comes to charging infrastructure. What I mean by this is: Right now if you look at the plug share App and look at the new charging sites that have come on line in the last few hours probably 75 percent of those are Tesla sites. Some of these are Superchargers but most are level two chargers that businesses and hotels and restaurants and parking plazas are installing. It varies depending on time of day and time zone etc but just looking at the last few hours it looks like about 100 new charge stations have come on line in the world. Hard to count because it keeps scrolling as new ones are added but I would bet 70 to 75 are Tesla. So here is an example of how it affects buying decisions. We are a few years away from replacing our Nissan Leaf. Great car and does what we need, but when we retire in a few years we want something different. We really like the new hatchback Leaf and are comparing it to the Tesla Model 3 sedan. We actually lean towards the Leaf for a few reasons. But at this point would probably buy the more expensive Tesla Model 3 for one reason. The charging infrastructure is just simply so much better. There are 7000 ish pre-ordered leafs right now. There are literally hundreds of thousands of pre ordered Tesla Model 3’s. I would think some of those are because of the better infrastructure and certainly the TMC forum supports that.

So I am wondering if this also wouldn’t play out in the heavy and medium truck industry. The article talks about different companies collaboratings on the charging infrastructure. I can see this market approach working. Obviously there are a bunch of trucking companies testing the waters but I wonder if an established infrastructure will have an effect on purchase decision.

Time will tell. Interesting though.

[8_1_Van]

valhalla360 wrote:

8.1 Van wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
If it's a tow vehicle, I want to see it pulling something heavy for long distances.

If you want a track day, I'd rather have a Ferrari or Lambo. Maybe a Vette if we need to keep the costs under control.

Electric motors pulling a heavy load

Electric motors drive the Belaz 75710 dump truck with 496 ton payload rating

So what is the range on either of those under battery power?

I never suggested electric motors couldn't pull heavy loads. They actually do great at it. The problem is heavy loads FOR LONG DISTANCES.

Tesla’s next move: mega-chargers for its new Semi electric trucks

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

Interesting read on Norway changing all their ferries to Electric and seeing 80 percent cost savings on operating costs. No idea how that would cross to the trucking world though.

https://newatlas.com/norway-electric-car-ferry/25756/

Here's a link to it. A few things that jump out.

More than 2/3 of the fuel savings appear to be due to the new lighter weight catamaran design as the old ferry runs at 1500kw and the new one at 400kw, so it's mostly about a more efficient hull design which could easily be adapted for smaller more fuel efficient diesel engines.


Edit: Just found, it's actually a plug in hybrid, so they aren't trusting it yet.

That's the same article I read. There are a few nations watching to see how it works out for them. Probably still lots of hurdles to overcome. I wish there had been more detail on the connecters for charging etc. Lots of speculation on how Tesla is going to do it. I'm not sure they know yet. Interesting stuff.

[John___Angela]

. whoops