Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[hawkeye-08]

I think Delphi has the answer to this Bosch pump problem. I had read that they patented the fix to the CP4 pumps and they also came out with a new pump that incorporated their patents. Bosch is too stubborn to pay Delphi the license fees for the better pump...

New VW with Delphi HPFS pump

... and of course the poster over on FTE that posted this..

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/do...003-45604P.pdf

The Bosch CP 4.X series of pumps are a family of pumps, with the same inherent design flaw, such that a law firm in Texas has a class action lawsuit against VW/ Bosch for it, you can find it at the end of the NHSTA pdf above on pages 316 to 333.

[FishOnOne]

ricatic wrote:
Easy now guy's, in the effort to unsaddle the current Ford site posse leader, sent to defend the honor of the Brand, we do not want the flow of facts to be interrupted by a closed thread.

Civil...informative...factual

Regards

Ok here's the Shame on Rick Event Statement... No facts to back up such statement.

[FishOnOne]

I'm Rick James wrote:

NewsW wrote:

durallymax wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:


I simply asked for the document (like the one the Ford techs use)the GM techs use to determine if a warrenty repair is covered or not based on your assumptions and you again cannot provide.

Taking the position that this document likely does not exist is pure speculation. But then again I'm not surprised of your response.

Anybody tell you that you would be a terrible lawyer.

Any qualified lawyer or law student past first year might know what FRCP is, particularly Rule 26.

:S

Has anyone ever told you that basic grammar is not one of your strong suits, "Doctor"?

"Lighten up Francis" You guys are a hoot!

[NewsW]

ricatic wrote:

...now that's gonna leave a mark...

Looks like you and I are both wearing badges of honor at certain forums.

[NewsW]

hoopers wrote:

Somebody said it was a 0.6% failure rate. That means most of the pumps are working fine...99.4% of us should be fine! I hope it is this way!

The question is, lets index that rate of failure:

Mileage at failure.

And lets look at situations where there are repeated failures.

Yes, there are such cases on the VW site.

Then ask, is there something that is causing it to prematurely fail, will the failure rate increase with mileage?

Basically, is it .6 percent of total installed base (regardless of mileage) or is it rising percentage with age...

Need to do some back of the envelope work.

[TugCE]

I have been reading about this issue here on on several other forums. Now I do not own a truck that is affected (I drive a 2005 Chevy LLY) but I have worked on vessels in the Merchant Marine as Chief Engineer and my wife says if you cut me I will bleed diesel.

When I was sailing on large sea going Tug Barge Units we had EMD Medium Speed Diesels the red lined at 900 rpm. When they switched to Low Sulfur Diesel we had a lot of injector problems.

Now to the reason for posting. My company installed Alfa Laval Centrifuges after having to replace many sets of injectors, (16 per engine). I was shocked at the amount of "stuff" that came out of this Clean Diesel. After running around 10,000 gallons through it there would be about a 1/2 of crud caked to the sides of the centrifuge bowl.

I know that there are Engine Oil Spinners, which are basically small centrifuges and I was wondering if one could be made to fit and work to pre-filter the fuel as it exits the tank. This would remove any water plus it would spin out most if not all of the impurities.

My brother had his 2008 6.4 250 in for some work at the local dealership. While waiting I was able to talk to the Diesel Fleet Service Manager. It was a interesting conversation. He did say that he had not had any problems so far with the 6.7 but he said that he was seeing a increase in the 6.4 trucks coming in with fuel system problems so as other have said time will tell as the new trucks rack up the miles.

By the way my brother just traded in the Ford on a 2012 Chevy 3500 CCLB 4x4 Dually. He is the type to really keep up on all PM so, hopefully he will be lucky.

[hoopers]

ricatic wrote:

1jeep wrote:
Wow 26 pages and still going...who is running this thread the enegizer bunny?

Civil discussion supported by known facts driving honest guy's who want to know why Ford has taken the low road when it comes to customer service regarding Bosch CP4 series HPFP's.

There has been a goodly amount of excellent information discussed on this thread...despite occasional attempts by some to get the thread closed.

According to answers provided to the NHTSA by Ford and GM, percentage wise, Bosch CP4 series HPFP's are failing at very similar rates. It is not about filtration. It is about lubricity...or a breakdown of the hardening coatings on the internal parts. Two Detroit Diesel engineers have inspected the HFPP from my truck. No water, no sign of particle contaminants...just an under lubricated and overheated pump assembly.

Regards

There could be many things internal to a pump which causes it to fail. Especially at the extreme pressures and incredibly tight fits/tolerances these pumps are designed at. Lubrication can just be making a bad design better. For example, there may be some mechanical interference issues going on, and lubrication helps pumps which are on the edge. Even with Canadian diesel, there are still pump failures. Until Bosch figures it out, there probably won't be a fix.

I am sure GM, VW, and Ford are raising h_ll at Bosch.

Somebody said it was a 0.6% failure rate. That means most of the pumps are working fine...99.4% of us should be fine! I hope it is this way!

[hoopers]

NewsW wrote:
One of my strategies is to look at what they are publishing, presenting at conferences.

Generally, what is made public are information that is of limited technical value, the problem having been already solved and put in place, and is published to deter others (as in we solved that one, and you haven't), prevent others from patenting it (patent filing clock starts to run), or to goad the industry to a new standard (that they control)...

Working backwards, you also can guess what they didn't know a few years before the paper was published, and what flaws are likely to be in the older design.

A rash of publications by Bosch around 2009 is co-incindental with ULSD in USA, and CP4 introduction in 2007 (and early data in field coming in), and a few other events...

NewsW, do you have any inside knowledge here? Do you have connections to Bosch, Ford, VW, or GM?

[JPhelps]

Pretty good marketing ploy.

I guess I need to comment on my comment.
Not an intentional marketing ploy I am sure, but a possible scenario and a consequence of not knowing about the amine/DLC incompatibility.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

JPhelps wrote:
Ford's own web site doesn't even say that this stuff is compatible with the 6.7 engine. They might be trashing your injection pumps by recommending you use this stuff and pushing its sales through their dealers. Pretty good marketing ploy. Pay Ford to buy your truck. Pay Ford for additive to ruin your pump. Pay Ford to replace your complete injection system. win,win,win.

PM22A

Note: This ultra-low sulfur formulation can be used in engines required to meet 2007 emissions requirements (e.g., Ford’s 6.4L diesel engine) and is backward compatible as well (i.e., can be used in Ford’s 6.9L, 7.3L and 6.0L diesel engines)

WOW, how ironic would that be? Ever hear of smallpox blankets? :E

[ricatic]

NewsW wrote:

ricatic wrote:

I believe the "My Big Ford Drum Is Broke" thread was a lot longer with many more hits than this one...

Regards

You still got the pom poms and the short skirts?


:B

...now that's gonna leave a mark...

[NewsW]

ricatic wrote:

I believe the "My Big Ford Drum Is Broke" thread was a lot longer with many more hits than this one...

Regards

You still got the pom poms and the short skirts?


:B

[ricatic]

rick83864 wrote:

Artemus Gordon wrote:

JPhelps wrote:

This is making me ill

Not used to gambling? Well, you are gonna roll the big one when you sign on the dotted line for that new 450.
That is why you are feeling ill.
Don't blame the messenger.

Lol. I am a "big boy" and can assure you I am not the least bit worried! LOl!!!:C

LOL
As a famous poster once said " whistling past the graveyard". You could just step up to the 650 and not worry about the CP4 :B

Just wondering Marty, what is the record for hits/ posts, other than the stickies.

I believe the "My Big Ford Drum Is Broke" thread was a lot longer with many more hits than this one...

Regards

[NewsW]

thomasmnile wrote:

I remember the introductory marketing splash, the Mike Rowe videos on the website, etc. Seem to recall one of the development team for the engine state that a fleet of test "mules" logged like 2 million miles on this engine before full scale production began. Wonder what Ford's experience with the CP4x was with the mules??? :h

What could have slipped through the most through testing programs by Bosch, Ford, and everyone else?

They did not deliberately make a dud.

What is different between having about 1 million units out in the field and the small samples tested?

Did they test in the lab?

Were they using a reference grade fuel and not "field" fuel like we get around the country?

What went wrong?

Is it a field issue? Fuel inconsistency? QC?

Additives incompatibility?

What?

[45Ricochet]

Artemus Gordon wrote:

JPhelps wrote:

This is making me ill

Not used to gambling? Well, you are gonna roll the big one when you sign on the dotted line for that new 450.
That is why you are feeling ill.
Don't blame the messenger.

Lol. I am a "big boy" and can assure you I am not the least bit worried! LOl!!!:C

LOL
As a famous poster once said " whistling past the graveyard". You could just step up to the 650 and not worry about the CP4 :B

Just wondering Marty, what is the record for hits/ posts, other than the stickies.