Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[Huntindog]

NewsW wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
My comments in red.
Also the ONLY thing that Ford's PM22A has going for it is that Ford pushes it whole heartily.
Ford has not tested it on the 6.7. Ford also stated that they don't know anything about the pump, as they buy it as a "black box" from Bosch.
So Ford really can't say for certain if their additive is helping anything more than their bottom line.

Should Ford inform a customer that the failure is caused by the use of Ford PM22A in recommended doses, it would make for a rather interesting set of fireworks/

Hunting:

Am I mistaken or have Ford cut back on warranties recently?

The 6.7 powertrain, not counting emissions warranty required by law, is only warranted for 5/60?

Is there another powerstroke warranty in addition to the legally required emissions warranty?

My take on the PM22A is that Ford is figuring that the profits from it's sales can be used to offset the potential losses from the HPFP fiasco:B I wonder if it could slowly be damaging the DLC, so that the failure may show up after the warranty is up.

I haven't kept up on Ford's warranty terms.

[NewsW]

Huntindog wrote:
My comments in red.
Also the ONLY thing that Ford's PM22A has going for it is that Ford pushes it whole heartily.
Ford has not tested it on the 6.7. Ford also stated that they don't know anything about the pump, as they buy it as a "black box" from Bosch.
So Ford really can't say for certain if their additive is helping anything more than their bottom line.

Should Ford inform a customer that the failure is caused by the use of Ford PM22A in recommended doses, it would make for a rather interesting set of fireworks/

Hunting:

Am I mistaken or have Ford cut back on warranties recently?

The 6.7 powertrain, not counting emissions warranty required by law, is only warranted for 5/60?

Is there another powerstroke warranty in addition to the legally required emissions warranty?

[Huntindog]

My comments in red.

NewsW wrote:

Engineer9860 wrote:


I guess the point you are trying to make is that GM would use this statement to weasel out from under a warranty claim?

I think that line from the owner's manual has more to do with people who use anti-gel additive moreso than what additives that would prevent pump failure.

"Would", I'd say based on history to date, no.

If you used biodiesel above permitted, the answer is yes --- documented above in GM policy posted.

"Could" I'd say yes --- so why expose one to the "could" when there is no risk in doing nothing.


Specifically, I do not believe that we can buy a miracle additive on the market that "prevents pump failure" as we do not know what the cause is yet.


Also the ONLY thing that Ford's PM22A has going for it is that Ford pushes it whole heartily.
Ford has not tested it on the 6.7. Ford also stated that they don't know anything about the pump, as they buy it as a "black box" from Bosch.
So Ford really can't say for certain if their additive is helping anything more than their bottom line.

Furthermore, given the additive contains stuff that we do not know is helping or hurting, why risk?

I specifically caution people who think home brew remedies like adding biodiesel, 2 stroke oil, XYZ snake oil, etc. are basically running huge risks.

GM may grin and bear it, or deny the claim.

I like to have certainty on my side.

[NewsW]

Huntindog wrote:

I used to think that. Then GMs NHSTA response came out. GM has had about the same amount of failures as Ford. GM said so, and they cannot lie when the feds ask.

Some people think it is a conspiracy!

:B

[Huntindog]

gmcsmoke wrote:

Engineer9860 wrote:
Found this on dieselplace.com: (apologies if it is a repost)

Delphi

I went through the LML (CP4 affected) section over there looking for doom, and gloom. Not much discussion on Duramax CP4 HPFP failures.

Looks like ricatic is a man of legend on the Chevy diesel forums as well. 😉

Yeah these "horror stories" I keep hearing about remind me of the lippert frame discussions.

Someone always heard about massive failures but never had the facts to back it up. If GM pumps were failing, warranty or not you'd hear about it on a forum with 138,000 members.

I used to think that. Then GMs NHSTA response came out. GM has had about the same amount of failures as Ford. GM said so, and they cannot lie when the feds ask.

[gmcsmoke]

Engineer9860 wrote:
Found this on dieselplace.com: (apologies if it is a repost)

Delphi

I went through the LML (CP4 affected) section over there looking for doom, and gloom. Not much discussion on Duramax CP4 HPFP failures.

Looks like ricatic is a man of legend on the Chevy diesel forums as well. 😉

Yeah these "horror stories" I keep hearing about remind me of the lippert frame discussions.

Someone always heard about massive failures but never had the facts to back it up. If GM pumps were failing, warranty or not you'd hear about it on a forum with 138,000 members.

[NewsW]

Engineer9860 wrote:


I guess the point you are trying to make is that GM would use this statement to weasel out from under a warranty claim?

I think that line from the owner's manual has more to do with people who use anti-gel additive moreso than what additives that would prevent pump failure.

"Would", I'd say based on history to date, no.

If you used biodiesel above permitted, the answer is yes --- documented above in GM policy posted.

"Could" I'd say yes --- so why expose one to the "could" when there is no risk in doing nothing.


Specifically, I do not believe that we can buy a miracle additive on the market that "prevents pump failure" as we do not know what the cause is yet.

Furthermore, given the additive contains stuff that we do not know is helping or hurting, why risk?

I specifically caution people who think home brew remedies like adding biodiesel, 2 stroke oil, XYZ snake oil, etc. are basically running huge risks.

GM may grin and bear it, or deny the claim.

I like to have certainty on my side.

[Engineer9860]

NewsW wrote:

Engineer9860 wrote:
If you believe that unique
circumstances call for a fuel additive to be used, consult your dealer for advice.






But they add that little caveat........

Can visualize the dealer then tell you to watch the chimney to see if it is white or black smoke...

Or the Tarot cards come out...

I guess the point you are trying to make is that GM would use this statement to weasel out from under a warranty claim?

I think that line from the owner's manual has more to do with people who use anti-gel additive moreso than what additives that would prevent pump failure.

[NewsW]

Engineer9860 wrote:
If you believe that unique
circumstances call for a fuel additive to be used, consult your dealer for advice.






But they add that little caveat........

Can visualize the dealer then tell you to watch the chimney to see if it is white or black smoke...

Or the Tarot cards come out...

[durallymax]

Basically GM is replacing the pumps and not complaining. So if you feel additives are worth dumping money on, then go for it GM doesn't seem to care either way.

[Engineer9860]

NewsW wrote:
GM Statement:

Notice:
Diesel fuel or fuel additives not recommended in this manual could damage the fuel system, fuel?operated heater (FOH) (Van models only), and engine. Your warranty would not cover this damage. And:
. Diesel fuel that has been mixed with engine oil or automatic transmission fluid
could damage the engine and emission controls.

We do not test aftermarket diesel fuel additives. Some additives, particularly those which contain alcohol or water emulsifiers, could damage the fuel system. If you believe that unique
circumstances call for a fuel additive to be used, consult your dealer for advice.

This says, "don't touch it"!

But they add that little caveat........

[NewsW]

GM Statement:

Notice:
Diesel fuel or fuel additives not recommended in this manual could damage the fuel system, fuel?operated heater (FOH) (Van models only), and engine. Your warranty would not cover this damage. And:
. Diesel fuel that has been mixed with engine oil or automatic transmission fluid
could damage the engine and emission controls.

We do not test aftermarket diesel fuel additives. Some additives, particularly those which contain alcohol or water emulsifiers, could damage the fuel system. If you believe that unique
circumstances call for a fuel additive to be used, consult your dealer for advice.

This says, "don't touch it"!

[Engineer9860]

dieselplace discussion regarding LML fuel additives

[Engineer9860]

NewsW wrote:

Engineer9860 wrote:


I think the general consensus is to stay away from any additive that dissolves the water droplets. The water needs to remain in a state that will allow the water separator to remove them from the fuel stream most effectively.

For warranty clarity, stay away from all additives not specifically approved by that manufacturer, and sold by the manufacturer of the motor.

I'll see if I can find a link to the discussion on this subject RE Duramax LML. It seems GM's owner's manual does a tap dance around wether or not you can use an additive.

One thing is for certain GM DOES NOT condone the use of an emulsifying (water dissolving) fuel supplement.

[NewsW]

Engineer9860 wrote:


I think the general consensus is to stay away from any additive that dissolves the water droplets. The water needs to remain in a state that will allow the water separator to remove them from the fuel stream most effectively.

For warranty clarity, stay away from all additives not specifically approved by that manufacturer, and sold by the manufacturer of the motor.


The filter situation could be seen from the technical articles published on filtration.