Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[ricatic]

We were at the Detroit Auto Show today...Deb and I wandered into the Ford display...We stopped to look at the new Dark Brown Platinum CC 6.7 that was on display. A staff person, provided by the UAW/Ford cooperative team, started a conversation with me. She found my story quite interesting...She took my contact info and promised that someone at Ford would be in touch... IF I am holding my breath...will I get as blue as the Ford KoolAid????

Spent a bunch of time looking over the 2013 Ram 3500 HD Dually Longhorn Edition...what a spectacular truck...

Regards

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

VW is experiencing far, far fewer failures with running the same design, smaller piston bore, longer stroke from the cam and limiting max pressure developed to 1800 bar pressure.

Wasn't lower pressure what Krebs, or was it Jodl recommended to the leader?

Yes, it was, but perhaps if we tell the lie enough times, it can become factual and The Truth over at FTE with it's koolaid fanboi drinking buds and mods over there. :S

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:

VW is experiencing far, far fewer failures with running the same design, smaller piston bore, longer stroke from the cam and limiting max pressure developed to 1800 bar pressure.

Wasn't lower pressure what Krebs, or was it Jodl recommended to the leader?

[NinerBikes]

BenK wrote:
Agree, it all points back to this area as the root cause

Have said using a cam instead of a crank is wrong for this type of PSI.

Again, mystified how the highly educated designers can deem okay to go to DLC
on a roller with this level of PSI.

That has sooooo many failure or potential failure issues just looking at it from
the outside. From the 'dent' the roller and cam 'will' have and made worse at
shutdown. Where the poor lube is squeezed out to then have a dry cold start, albeit
the PSI's won't be as high on the first rotation...till the piston develops 2,000 BAR

Again, DLC or diamond is the best known non-stick material known to mankind. How
does a very poor lube like diesel manage to both coat (film strength) and during
shutdown/over-nite keep a film on there to prevent dry starts?

ANY roller/cam miss-alignment will cause scuffing of material and maybe
that is yet another reason they went to DLC, but then an oxymoron, as the roller
needs some level of traction to start rolling. Otherwise it will skid

What is the cam rotational speeds, both RPM and SFPM? Is the follower spring
force high enough to prevent floating it off the cam?

Betcha on that, that the piston floats because I've not seen any spring pushing
it against the follower, nor positive capturing mechanism

A journal bearing would have been a better choice, but that won't work on a cam
and say look a any ICE's crank/rod bearing...but that would be more expensive...

A caged roller bearing crank type journal, given sufficient size bearings and crank, would survive in 400 micron or better wear scar fuel, with a connecting rod to the piston.

VW is experiencing far, far fewer failures with running the same design, smaller piston bore, longer stroke from the cam and limiting max pressure developed to 1800 bar pressure. You can bet that the next version of VW Golf, the Mk VIII version, VW has issued an ultimatum to Robert Bosch, Make this problem go away.

[stsmark]

Cam spins engine speed.

[BenK]

Agree, it all points back to this area as the root cause

Have said using a cam instead of a crank is wrong for this type of PSI.

Again, mystified how the highly educated designers can deem okay to go to DLC
on a roller with this level of PSI.

That has sooooo many failure or potential failure issues just looking at it from
the outside. From the 'dent' the roller and cam 'will' have and made worse at
shutdown. Where the poor lube is squeezed out to then have a dry cold start, albeit
the PSI's won't be as high on the first rotation...till the piston develops 2,000 BAR

Again, DLC or diamond is the best known non-stick material known to mankind. How
does a very poor lube like diesel manage to both coat (film strength) and during
shutdown/over-nite keep a film on there to prevent dry starts?

ANY roller/cam miss-alignment will cause scuffing of material and maybe
that is yet another reason they went to DLC, but then an oxymoron, as the roller
needs some level of traction to start rolling. Otherwise it will skid

What is the cam rotational speeds, both RPM and SFPM? Is the follower spring
force high enough to prevent floating it off the cam?

Betcha on that, that the piston floats because I've not seen any spring pushing
it against the follower, nor positive capturing mechanism

A journal bearing would have been a better choice, but that won't work on a cam
and say look a any ICE's crank/rod bearing...but that would be more expensive...

[NinerBikes]

The crux of the problem in the design defect IMHO.

I've stated all along that IMHO, this has been a defective design problem with the roller, cam and follower interface. This engineer has captured the crux of the design failure, when run at 2000 bar pressures with expensive to replace when they fail piezo injectors.

I do not think the plunger running in an aluminum bore is the main issue. The big problem in my view is that the interface between the cam and the follower has a roller with line contact against the cam and the force distribution around that roller doesn't give much assurance that the roller will rotate rather than slide. (Friction from roller to cam acting in the direction of the roller spinning; friction from roller to follower acts in the direction of holding it still and there is no mechanical advantage for it to roll rather than slide against the cam.)

The CP3 does not have this situation.

One of the sub-forums has a thread concerning dissection of the CP4.1 HPFP and its various shortcomings.
__________________
Brian P.
2006 Jetta TDI 5-sp, Spice Red, Unitronics stage 1, 0.681 5th gear, and a roadrace bike on the trailer


That design element right there, is the definition of "fragile" Far too critical a condition based on fuel, and more so, operating this HPFP at near limit design fuel pressures, regardless of lubricity of the fuel. Run these pumps hard, near their operating limits with heavy or full throttle applications, and the pump will die in relatively short order.

[NinerBikes]

stsmark wrote:
Only because it had played out. It was headed nowhere.

When your Ford breaks down and you are denied warranty coverage for a failed HPFP, you are headed nowhere soon, too. :M

[stsmark]

Only because it had played out. It was headed nowhere.

[NewsW]

Arizona1 wrote:
Rick,

The thread you spoke about over at TDS was closed today or yesterday. Well...... They let it go for a little while.........

NewsW wrote:


OK, lets start betting on the thread.

1 round of drinks (for the 3 of us) that it will be gone by 12/08/12 noon.

Right on schedule!

[Arizona1]

Rick,

The thread you spoke about over at TDS was closed today or yesterday. Well...... They let it go for a little while.........

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:
Another glaring fault by NHTSA... They did NOT request the number of HPFP failures of Jetta Sportwagens "JSW"s with bad HPFP's in their data requests of Volkswagen of America.

Here's a link to some raw data failures of number of replaced HPFP's in VW's, by area, by state, by date.Excel file of failures

There's a sh*t ton of these failures, and the data is missing for All 2009 to 2012 jetta Sport Wagen TDI's in here, also... evidently NHTSA forgot to ask about that model also.

They couldn't find a cause for the runaways either....

But that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[NinerBikes]

Another glaring fault by NHTSA... They did NOT request the number of HPFP failures of Jetta Sportwagens "JSW"s with bad HPFP's in their data requests of Volkswagen of America.

Here's a link to some raw data failures of number of replaced HPFP's in VW's, by area, by state, by date.Excel file of failures

There's a sh*t ton of these failures, and the data is missing for All 2009 to 2012 jetta Sport Wagen TDI's in here, also... evidently NHTSA forgot to ask about that model also.

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
The paper trail made public is rather... um... not nice to read.

Breakdown on failures in VW/Audi line, units produced and fuel issues.

Volkswagen Audi Group (VAG) response to NHTSA on fuel quality.

[NinerBikes]

In answer to your earlier question, it's possible some of the offspring that designed this pump are from descendants of this:

Hindenburg