Increased Engine Power?

[S_NotFree]

I have a Gas Workhorse 8.1 with Allison 6 speed and want to increase power. I have added Banks Power exhaust systems on 2 coaches in past and was very pleased in Mts and on short entry ramps. I now see they have a new water-methanol injection system that adds more HP and Torque than their header systems. Has anyone used this kit yet and if so what are your thoughts? It looks like a much simpler install than the complete header and exhaust system. Also, any other tips on how to add more power? Thanks..

[S_NotFree]

Gjac,

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping someone would respond regarding the Banks Water/Meth system. It sounds like it really helped your buddy.

I have owned two gas coaches where I installed the complete Banks header systems and it makes a huge difference in power and it does help fuel economy with a caveat. Since you have more power on the same amount of throttle, IF you always run half throttle and did 60mph on a flat highway, you would see noticeable difference in MPG. HOWEVER, most of us when we have more power, particularly in an already slow and very heavy vehicle, use that power. Particularly on steep grades. With the Banks header systems, you could climb the grades much faster but often you still had the pedal to the metal but were usually in a gear or two higher and going 50 to 60 instead of 20 to 30 thus using the same fuel. At least that was what I did. I would love passing a DP on a steep grade which was easy unless it was a higher end DP that had the 400hp or above engine or someone like your buddy who made his own performance mods.

The cost of a Banks complete header-exhaust system which now includes a ram air system plus a electronic adjustable programmer is about $2600 direct from Banks. You still have the install. Their brochure says this gives you 70hp. However, they also sell the same package, without the headers and their tests show it added 51 hp? They use rear wheel power from a dyno test which is always much less than engine hp. It seems strange that the headers themselves only account for 19hp. Without the headers, the 51hp and a decent amount of added torque system is $1300 and a much easier install. So, I am thinking I am going to add that plus the water/meth injection. The electronics that go with the meth systems keep the mixture within the range safely needed and immediately shuts down the system if the computer senses anything going wrong. If I see myself using this coach often, I can always add the headers and assume I would have increased power by about a third.

[Gjac]

I talked to my friend yesterday about his methanol system which is on a 1998 Dutch Star DP. He is a retired auto mechanic. He bought the one from Banks which is a 50-50 system he only uses it for hill climbing, claims it added 75 HP and works great. Said he would install it on a gas MH also. He said he paid about $800. As far as a mpg saving's with headers and having the increased MPG pay for the system I would not count on that. Most everyone that I hear about say they get a good increase in performance but no MPG improvement. Sounds like your looking for the most you can get from that eng, but if you look at it from a HP/$ comparison you can install the header system for $4000 at pick up 49 hp or the methanol system for $1000 and pick up 75 hp. Numbers are in gross terms, you can get the exact figures and make an informed decision.

[C_Schomer]

I don't know about the late water/meth kits but the kits in the 60s barely made a noticeable increase. My uncle sold them and I tried one on my 390 ford. He died with a shed full of those things... they weren't worth the money. A blower kit would be great! Craig

[S_NotFree]

Matt,Thanks for taking the time to reply. I asked the question as I was suspect. I am well aware of Aircraft use, in fact years back I was a USAF 135 pilot. In those days we used water injected into the 4 jet engines (the B-52 used 8 of those same engines) for every takeoff. It added about a third more power for takeoff only. I did call Banks Power Monday, their injection system is very high tech and produces a fine mist and has an electronic module and gauge that controls and monistors all. It is emissions legal in all states including CA. Since I have installed 2 of their header systems in the past, I am going to do that first. Here is a link to an article in RV Magazine where they installed the Banks Header system in an old Gas RV. They were impressed and it paid for itself in greatly improved fuel mileage. In my last installation, it took about 6 secs off the 0-60 times in an 05 workhorse with a 5 speed Allison, the 09 I now have has a 6 speed, so assume that will help some. Here is link:

http://www.rvmagonline.com/tech/0812rv-motorhome-performance-upgrades/

[Matt_Colie]

Notfree,

That water/alcohol mix has been in use for decades. If you ever flew on a DC-6, you used it. They call it ADI (Anti-Detonation Injection). It has a lot of neat things it does, it cools the cylinder and causes a significant boost of cylinder pressure (what makes the torque so you can have horsepower).

It also has some problems and these are why it was not widely added to passcar applications. Just one of those is that it can very easily cause cylinder pressures that cannot be accommodated by the hardware. So, things come apart in catastrophic style. If the engine's existing ECU is used to control it, this should not be an issue.

The second problem is corrosion. If and ADI engine is shut down while ADI is in use, there will be wet water left where there should be none and the damage done can be a disaster. Can you imagine this restriction on a typical passcar driver??

Then, there are emissions issues that I will not go into at all as I do not have the time.

Matt - a dyno lab refugee

[Gjac]

I don't know what your Riptide weighs but I think it is fairly short and should have very good performance. I think the complete header system adds about 50 more hp on the 8.1. Headers,FF mufflers,CAI on my old 454 added about 80 hp. This translated to 40-60 mph test going from 19 sec to 14 secs. Increasing the timing from 4 degrees BTDC to 9 shaved 2 secs more to bring it down to 12 secs. I don't know how it will effect the performance on the 8.1 but for no cost it was a great increase in performance. You might try this 40-60 MPH test first to establish a base line, then you can see what the performance mods actually do. Also once you know your baseline you can extrapolate what others have posted about methanol cooling etc. It's hard to find actual performance data most just report a big improvement or some other subjective words. A guy I met added a cooling system to his and I think it took 2-4 secs of his time if I remember correctly.

[Oldme]

I have read in several forums questions about the water/methanol kits.
I do not know of anyone that has bought one nor have a read a real life
review.

I do know that water/methanol was first used WWII with fighter planes.
The early 1957 283 FI Vette had a similar system form the factory.
I have sen these.

The idea is to cool the mix while the methanol gives a HP boost of it's own.

[coolbreeze01]

Let us know how you like it. Very interested in added HP for very little money.

[S_NotFree]

midnightsadie wrote:
all that stuff is just hype , very very little difference if any could be measured by a computer . if you want more power get a bigger engine .

I already owned a new (05) DP, an Expedition, was not worth the extra $ for as little as I used it and did not have the power to pass when you were doing 65 in 6th gear on a grade or with a strong headwind on I-90 in SD or west. I replaced it with a Gas 05 Safari with workhorse and added a banks exhaust system and it had far more power than the Expedition but it was also lighter. To go up to the 400hp or more DP you are talking huge difference in $ and not $2 to $3k.

A header exhaust kit does not damage an engine but was wondering about the water/methanol kits. The water cools the engine, I assume the methanol adds boost. It would only be used to merge into traffic or to climb a grade when you would have the pedal to the metal anyway. I did not need near as much pedal with the Banks header kits I have used in the past plus engine ran cooler and better gas mileage. It is not hype I assure you.

[Golden_HVAC]

Banks can do some impressive HP gains. If they say that is the way to go, then they have tested it in their labs, and on a dyno to make sure it works great, before selling it to the public!

Have Fun camping!

Fred.

[Big_Katuna]

The 8.1 comes with a big exhaust pipe. You could spend a fortune and not get much more power and probably at the cost of reliability.

Another live with it vote or buy a DP.

[msmith1_wa]

Check out Raylarengineering.Com

[midnightsadie]

all that stuff is just hype , very very little difference if any could be measured by a computer . if you want more power get a bigger engine .