5th Wheel Novice Needs Advice!

[WeGoCamping]

Hello, I've been towing long travel trailers for many years behind small and large gas engine and diesel trucks. I just sold my 29' trailer last year and this year I'm considering buying my first 5th wheel. I'm trying to decide between another travel trailer or buying my first 5th wheel. I like the idea of a shorter rig but am apprehensive of the extra weight.

I have a 1996 Chevy 3/4 ton 2500 with 7.4L, 5 speed manual, long bed extended cab 4x4. I live in a hilly area and this truck did pretty well towing my 7000 lb 29' trailer these last few years. The 5th wheel I'm looking at is about 8500 lbs loaded, 28' long. I think the truck is rated at 10,000lbs.

I assume the weight of a 5th wheel vs a trailer is no different in terms of how a truck pulls up hill pound for pound? I have some steep grades in my area that I pulled at 45 mph with my travel trailer. Am I biting off too much adding 1500 lbs?

I also assume a 5th wheel tows better in terms of handling since its up over the rear axle and is shorter that the 29'? Is the difference significant? Maybe maneuverability in tight campgrounds?

I'm trying to get a feel if the 5th wheel has significant advantages over a trailer. Any input or advice is appreciated!

[NC_Hauler]

milo wrote:
Also you might think about using a goose-neck hitch & adapter. That will save on about 100-150 lbs of hitch weight.

May save weight, BUT, I would check with the manufacturer of the 5er to see what THEY say about towing their 5er with a GN hitch....some will void some parts of the warranty if one tows a 5er with a GN hitch...easy to find out....just call the manufacturer of the 5er and see what THEY recommend..if they say it's ok...problem solved....

[milo]

Also you might think about using a goose-neck hitch & adapter. That will save on about 100-150 lbs of hitch weight.

[WeGoCamping]

I think my conclusion is that this truck is rated for the load but it definitely maxes it out. This truck is pretty long in the tooth, and I live in an area of steep mountain grades.

I currently tow 7500 lbs up the grades at 45 MPH, so adding another ~2000 lbs would probably kill off the truck. I'd have to make some mods to increase power and add some airbags to raise up the bed. After doing all that I think the risk is too great the engine (or something else) would give up the ghost.

I blew up a Ford 460 on the grade last year before I got this 454 Chevy, and that wasn't a fun experience after having spent a lot on upgrades to get that old truck running reliably and safely.

Hmph. I wish I still had my 2003 Dodge 2500 with the 5.9 Cummings. I hate to pass on this 5th deal, but it looks like it's a hard case to say I can tow this trailer in my area with this older truck. 😞

"It will move it but it won't be happy". Yep, I agree.

[WeGoCamping]

ependydad wrote:
YES- 300 pounds over GVWR, but under rear axle weight.

I've never fully understood why some people think that some ratings are more important than others. BUT- to each their own.

The different ratings are confusing to me. Each axle has its own rating, but then the total truck has a lower gross rating. I'd be legal with the rear axle. But slightly over GVWR. Does the GVWR relate to stopping/handling characteristics?

Some comments above note that it's okay to exceed GVWR slightly without issues as long as one doesn't ever exceed the RAGW.

[ependydad]

WeGoCamping wrote:
Okay, I just weighed the truck with a full tank and me in it:
3550 front and 3000 rear. Wow! heavier than I thought at 6550 lbs. So by those values that gives me 2000 lbs payload capacity to GVWR or 3000 lbs capacity over the rear axle.

If the hitch weighs 300 lbs and the trailer pin weight turns out to be 2000 lbs that would put me at 2300 lbs over the rear axle with 700 lbs margin to the max RAGW.

Is this correct?

Also, If I found too much sag in the rear couldn't I add air bags for stability?

YES- 300 pounds over GVWR, but under rear axle weight.

I've never fully understood why some people think that some ratings are more important than others. BUT- to each their own.

[WeGoCamping]

Okay, I just weighed the truck with a full tank and me in it:
3550 front and 3000 rear. Wow! heavier than I thought at 6550 lbs. So by those values that gives me 2000 lbs payload capacity to GVWR or 3000 lbs capacity over the rear axle.

If the hitch weighs 300 lbs and the trailer pin weight turns out to be 2000 lbs that would put me at 2300 lbs over the rear axle with 700 lbs margin to the max RAGW.

Is this correct?

Also, If I found too much sag in the rear couldn't I add air bags for stability?

[C_Schomer]

If you're like the 99% of us who started with TTs and switched to 5ers, you won't be sorry or go back. I'd say get it. It might be a good reason to get a better tv, later. You will also be glad you have a LB if you get a 5er. Craig

[WeGoCamping]

NC Hauler wrote:
Again, I will say, I would use the 5er's GVW of 10,200#....it's really hard to "assume" how much you're going to tow around...I don't carry water either...heck, I've even drained the hot water heater to where I have zero water on board...but you may be surprised how much your 5er may weigh when loaded for a 1 week trip...but sounds like you've got your mind made up and figure it'll work.....good enough

I hear what you're saying, which is to be safe and stick to the max trailer weight so you don't inadvertently get into a dangerous situation. I'm just trying to be a little less conservative since I don't have the truck capacity to spare.

I haven't made up my mind yet, I'm trying to understand 1. if it's safe and 2. if it's practical.

Sounds like I need to get some actual weights since it's that close. Unfortunately, the trailer is 7 hours away so I have to estimate the pin weight to see if I should buy the trailer and try it out.

[WeGoCamping]

NC Hauler wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:

sdetweil wrote:
and you really really need to look at the load rating of your tires on the rear axle. never ever exceed those..

Good point. Yes, I have some good 10 ply Toyo tires rated above the 6000 GVWR of the rear axle.

OK, you need to slow down...IF your tires weight carrying capacity EXCEED your 6,000# rear axle rating...that is ok AS LONG as you don't think that the tires will compensate for the AXLE....the tires are now not the weak link, the rear axle is....don't think that you can meet weight carrying capacity of the tires, exceed the rear axle weight rating and not cause a dangerous situation.

Yes, that's my understanding. The safe rear axle capacity is dictated by the axle or tire rating, whichever is less.

[WeGoCamping]

laknox wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:

laknox wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:
Thanks for the replies! My GVWR is 8600 lbs (4250 Front and 6000 Rear). Trailer GVWR is 10,200 lbs. Trailer Gross Dry Weight is 7200 lbs. Hitch weight is 1420 lbs according to the trailer specs...so I assume this applies to the portion of the hitch on the trailer?

Without actual weights, you're right at 2,000 lbs on the pin with that FW. (1420/7200)*10,200 = 2,011. Add the weight of a hitch, people, fuel and "stuff", and you're at ~2,500 cargo for your truck, ASSuming the ratio of 19% stays the same. If it loads more to the front, it could be even more. Probably =way= over the payload rating for that truck.

Lyle

So if I understand properly, you're evaluating the max load on each axle in this case? So If I have 6000 lbs capacity on the rear axle, and lets assume I have 2200 lbs dry on that axle (I'll weigh the truck axles soon), then that gives me 3800 lbs capacity. You're saying I should expect around 2000 lbs pin weight from the 5th, so that would leave me 1800 lbs for people and gear. Assuming that's under the total 8600 GVWR, I would be okay, correct? (At least in terms of weight ratings?)

I don't see a separate payload rating for this truck besides the fnt/rear axle ratings and GVWR. This is a full 3/4 ton with semi-floating rear axle 3.73 gears. I could see how that can come down to distribution from the front to rear. It seems it would take some careful measurement and adjustment.

Not at all. We're talking the weight on the king pin, that the truck will carry in the bed...along with the hitch, fuel, people and "stuff". That is =all= your payload for the truck. Unless you have a way to actually weigh the truck and trailer, you can only guess what the max weight on the pin will be by finding the ratio of the dry pin wt divided by the total dry wt, then multiply that by the GVW of the FW. This does =not= take into effect how you have the FW loaded. If your fresh water tank isn't right over the axles, your ratio could be =less= or it could be =more= than the 19% calculated by the weights you posted. Also, if you pack the front storage, or have a generator compartment, you could be upwards of 22-25% pin wt ratio and be even heavier on your truck. This whole thing is, IMO, something that the manufacturers avoid at all costs, because they know that the vast majority of FWs are going to be loaded above the average truck's capacity. If they truly cared, the manufacturers would randomly weigh their products at campgrounds around the country and make detailed notes on loading and SHARE that info publicly. I know I'm most likely slightly overweight and I will shift stuff to the back of my FW to lighten the load when I can (canned goods, water jugs, etc.), and I carry as little fresh water as I can when I'm going boondocking, then stop at the closest spot to our usual site to tank up.

Lyle

Okay, so calculating the ability to tow a 5th wheel is pretty much the same as assuming a load in the bed, except that the load is centralized on the rear axle to a great degree and will have little affect on the front axle.

I'm lucky enough to have a public truck scale on the side of the road very close to my house. I'll run the truck over the scales to see what the weight on each axle is with full fuel and without gear/people. I can estimate the gear/people and do two evaluations:

1. See if the truck + people + gear + estimated pin weight is less than the 8600 lbs GVWR. If so then I'm well within the truck rating with margin.
2. If not in the GVWR above then compare against the 6000 lb RAWR as a minimum safety measure.

[laknox]

WeGoCamping wrote:

laknox wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:
Thanks for the replies! My GVWR is 8600 lbs (4250 Front and 6000 Rear). Trailer GVWR is 10,200 lbs. Trailer Gross Dry Weight is 7200 lbs. Hitch weight is 1420 lbs according to the trailer specs...so I assume this applies to the portion of the hitch on the trailer?

Without actual weights, you're right at 2,000 lbs on the pin with that FW. (1420/7200)*10,200 = 2,011. Add the weight of a hitch, people, fuel and "stuff", and you're at ~2,500 cargo for your truck, ASSuming the ratio of 19% stays the same. If it loads more to the front, it could be even more. Probably =way= over the payload rating for that truck.

Lyle

So if I understand properly, you're evaluating the max load on each axle in this case? So If I have 6000 lbs capacity on the rear axle, and lets assume I have 2200 lbs dry on that axle (I'll weigh the truck axles soon), then that gives me 3800 lbs capacity. You're saying I should expect around 2000 lbs pin weight from the 5th, so that would leave me 1800 lbs for people and gear. Assuming that's under the total 8600 GVWR, I would be okay, correct? (At least in terms of weight ratings?)

I don't see a separate payload rating for this truck besides the fnt/rear axle ratings and GVWR. This is a full 3/4 ton with semi-floating rear axle 3.73 gears. I could see how that can come down to distribution from the front to rear. It seems it would take some careful measurement and adjustment.

Not at all. We're talking the weight on the king pin, that the truck will carry in the bed...along with the hitch, fuel, people and "stuff". That is =all= your payload for the truck. Unless you have a way to actually weigh the truck and trailer, you can only guess what the max weight on the pin will be by finding the ratio of the dry pin wt divided by the total dry wt, then multiply that by the GVW of the FW. This does =not= take into effect how you have the FW loaded. If your fresh water tank isn't right over the axles, your ratio could be =less= or it could be =more= than the 19% calculated by the weights you posted. Also, if you pack the front storage, or have a generator compartment, you could be upwards of 22-25% pin wt ratio and be even heavier on your truck. This whole thing is, IMO, something that the manufacturers avoid at all costs, because they know that the vast majority of FWs are going to be loaded above the average truck's capacity. If they truly cared, the manufacturers would randomly weigh their products at campgrounds around the country and make detailed notes on loading and SHARE that info publicly. I know I'm most likely slightly overweight and I will shift stuff to the back of my FW to lighten the load when I can (canned goods, water jugs, etc.), and I carry as little fresh water as I can when I'm going boondocking, then stop at the closest spot to our usual site to tank up.

Lyle

[NC_Hauler]

Again, I will say, I would use the 5er's GVW of 10,200#....it's really hard to "assume" how much you're going to tow around...I don't carry water either...heck, I've even drained the hot water heater to where I have zero water on board...but you may be surprised how much your 5er may weigh when loaded for a 1 week trip...but sounds like you've got your mind made up and figure it'll work.....good enough

[WeGoCamping]

NC Hauler wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:
Thanks for the replies! My GVWR is 8600 lbs (4250 Front and 6000 Rear). Trailer GVWR is 10,200 lbs. Trailer Gross Dry Weight is 7200 lbs. Hitch weight is 1420 lbs according to the trailer specs...so I assume this applies to the portion of the hitch on the trailer?

Do yourself a BIG favor and don't even go by the dry weight, it's sort of a joke, NO ONE tows a 5er empty or dry....and it's amazing how much one can pack into their rv and not realize it until they decide to completely empty it....You need to use the 5er's GVW of 10,200#...now you may never load to that, but, "what if"...using the 20% "ball park" pin weight equation, you could be looking at a pin weight of 2,000#.

I owned a 27' travel trailer, with a GVW 6500#, went to a 27' 5er with a GVW of 8500# and I traded trucks after a couple of "up hill" extreme slow downs.

The pin weight/hitch weight is what you'll be putting in the bed of your truck..

if your GVWR is 8600#, that is how much your truck can weigh with full fuel tank, all family in the truck, any pets, 5er hitch (figure 200#) AND the pin weight of the 5er, which again, would more than likely be MORE than the dry weight the manufacturer shows. I'd weigh the truck, just like you were about to hook up and go camping, (truck loaded)...then add 200# for 5er hitch...get the weight and subtract it from the GVWR of your truck, 8600# and that'll give you an idea of how much pin weight you can put in the bed of your truck..

NOW, if you exceed your trucks GVWR, which some do, you can ignore the GVWR numbers as quite a few do and go by your RAWR of 6,000#....I just wouldn't cut into it too deeply or you'll start wearing out components on your truck...I had an 01 Chevy 2500 that had a 9200# GVWR, which is 600# more GVWR than your truck has....

I think, though I might be wrong, a 5er with a 10,200 GVW may be too heavy for your older 2500 truck, and if your towing in the mountains, you may find this out sooner than later.....I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt:).....not a fun towing experience....

ON EDIT: OK, maybe I read something wrong,but in your first post you stated 8500# loaded 5er...after re-reading that, I thought I needed to re-thing what I posted, but in your next post you stated trailers GVW was, 10,200#...I would think THAT might push your older 2500 a little with limits....the 8500#, no, but the 10,200#...yeah, I'd want to know the numbers by doing the weighing.

Guess like Chris said, hook up and see what it does...

Sorry for the confusion. I meant to say that the empty weight of the trailer is 7100 lbs with a max GVWR of 10200. Judging by my empty weight vs loaded weight of previous trailers, I assumed about 1/2 way loaded for around 8500 realistically loaded. I don't travel with water or grey water since we usually camp in campgrounds with water and a dump on the way out.

My 29' trailer was 6200 lbs dry, and I towed it around 7500 loaded.

[NC_Hauler]

WeGoCamping wrote:

laknox wrote:

WeGoCamping wrote:
Thanks for the replies! My GVWR is 8600 lbs (4250 Front and 6000 Rear). Trailer GVWR is 10,200 lbs. Trailer Gross Dry Weight is 7200 lbs. Hitch weight is 1420 lbs according to the trailer specs...so I assume this applies to the portion of the hitch on the trailer?

Without actual weights, you're right at 2,000 lbs on the pin with that FW. (1420/7200)*10,200 = 2,011. Add the weight of a hitch, people, fuel and "stuff", and you're at ~2,500 cargo for your truck, ASSuming the ratio of 19% stays the same. If it loads more to the front, it could be even more. Probably =way= over the payload rating for that truck.

Lyle

So if I understand properly, you're evaluating the max load on each axle in this case? So If I have 6000 lbs capacity on the rear axle, and lets assume I have 2200 lbs dry on that axle (I'll weigh the truck axles soon), then that gives me 3800 lbs capacity. You're saying I should expect around 2000 lbs pin weight from the 5th, so that would leave me 1800 lbs for people and gear. Assuming that's under the total 8600 GVWR, I would be okay, correct? (At least in terms of weight ratings?) I could see how that can come down to distribution from the front to rear. It seems it would take some careful measurement and adjustment.

It's more about the rear axle....how much weight you're going to put in the bed of the truck. A 5er will not put that much weight, if any, on the front axle....almost ALL of it will be distributed on the rear axle....your trucks GVWR is based, to some extent on how much weight your front and rear axles can handle...though sometimes, the math doesn't add up.

If you stay within your trucks GVWR, you'll be more than ok...if you decide to ignore that number, which a lot of people do, then you work with your RAWR....just don't dig into a hole you can't dig out of.....