Running Light Problem or NOT???

[HammerToe]

I own a 2008 Keystone Cougar Model 291RLS – a 30 footer with two (bedroom and main) slideouts.

Recently. I tried a ’trick’ I had read about in some or other orum discussion that one could ‘turn on’ ALL? (I assumed ‘ALL’) a trailer’s running lights by ‘jumping’ PINS 4+5 on the rigs ‘trailer to tow vehicle’ connector used to power all these lights, brake lights and turn signals, etc.

I tried it, using a 5 amp fuse, and It Worked! Neat! Probably wouldn’t want to do it if one was dry camping or was not on ‘Shore Line Power’ for obvious reasons BUT, might come in handy some time to know the trick.

Anyway, not long ago I decided to order some suitable LED ‘bulbs’ to replace all my trailer’s incandescent running light bulbs so I ‘did the trick’’ to cause the trailers running lights to light up so that I could get the ‘polarity-sensitive’ LED bulbs inserted properly,

In the process of doing these replacements, I noticed something:

MY 5th has a total of THIRTEEN external running (or ‘clearnace’, if you prefer) lights: FIVE on the rear of the trailer up near the roof (ALL RED; ALL the rest are AMBER); TWO AMBER up near the roof on the trailer’s ‘nose cap’, and THREE MORE AMBER on EACH SIDE of the trailer – ‘front’, middle, and ‘rear’.

In the process of replacing the stock bulbs with LEDs, everything went fine with respect to (a) all five rear red ones, and (b) both the FRONT AND REAR SIDE AMBER ONES.

However, when I tried to replace (FIRST) the MIDDLE RHS AMBER Fixture’s bulb, I could NOT get the LED to work regardless of orientation!

Hmmm. Got out a Multimeter and checked – NO 12 volts, + OR –, ACROSS the terminals.

“Oh well, will come back to this one later”.

I continued to work my way around the trailer. Right-Front – O.K.. Left-Front O.K. (But – MIDDLE LEFT LIGHT ‘Fixture’ ‘bad’ exactly like ‘MIDDLE-RIGHT’. HMMMM!!! Something’s funny hear.

Finished off at LEFT-REAR (O.K.) and then seemed to notice something ELSE (since confirmed) that BOTH AMBER ‘FRONT CROWN/CAP’ Lights were ALSO not lit (‘STILL’; EVEN with the incandescent bulbs still in them!).

So far, still haven’t gone up there – maybe tomorrow – to check these BULBS AND SOCKETS - *BUT* “hard to believe” that BOTH these (fixures) bulbs are bad so I suspect something…

Like, maybe a COMMON POWER (WIRE) Supply or ‘GROUND’ problem?

If *I* were wiring up a (large number of) trailer clearance lights, I wouldn’t wire them ALL up (in parallel) together but would ‘segment them’ into at least 2 (in my case) or even 3 parts, with each subset of bulbs being wired up ‘in parallel’ sharing BOTH a POWER and GROUND line/wire.

Maybe? that’s it??? And there’s problem with one or the other of these two wires? If true’, ‘that’ would explain it.

Well, earlier today I decided to see if I might be able to, if not PINPOINT, then at least NARROW DOWN the possibility of where the problem might lie.

I FIGURED that since NEITHER the middle RHS or LHS would display a 12 volt differential with ‘The Fuse’ inserted AND all the other lights were working, maybe I could test to see if ‘The Problem’ lay with a ‘broken common power line’ OR ‘broken (common) ground (again, assuming ‘wiring’ and ‘sharing’ as above) SO:

FIRST, I ran a Long Test Lead STRAIGHT Back To ‘NEGATIVE’ on the main battery. THEN, with The Fuse installed and using a Multimeter, I checked for +12 volts FROM EITHER of the TWO LHS AND RHS FIXTURE TERMINALS to the DIRECT GROUND (The Long Test Lead).

RESULT – NO 12 volt differential FROM EITHER (receptacle) terminal to ‘DIRECT GROUND’ so it appears that 12v is NOT ‘getting to (one of) the socket’s terminals.

O.K., so, now let’s try connecting the Long Test Lead to the Main Battery’s POSITIVE TERMINAL and then check for a 12 volt differential to Ground (through the MM) again through EITHER OF the sockets two terminals.

Results: Nothing!!!

Now maybe I missed something. Maybe I’m completely ‘off base’ here, but this seems ‘weird’. (

I should mention that I also conducted these identical tests using the WORKING LHS FRONT AMBER SOCKET and DID GET in all cases, the results expected, BUT:

It seems we’ve got here a case where NEITHER TERMINAL/WIRE ‘goes to’/’sees’ EITHER ‘+12’ OR ‘Ground’ i.e. no continuity through either wire ‘back to’ where it ‘should be’.

This is leading me to believe that MAYBE I’m ‘completely missing something’.

MAYBE the Four Lights In Question ‘CANNOT be Tricked’ into coming on with the ‘Jumper Trick’.

MAYBE??? they only EVER ‘Light’ under ‘different conditions’ such as (possibly) (a) the TV much be hooked up AND other connections in the plug are made and/or (b) maybe the TV’s Headlights (not just ‘Running’) must actually be on OR (c) maybe these FOUR Lights only work as SIDE/FRONT ‘TURN SIGNAL’ indicators, similar to the RED REAR AND REAR-SIDE and AMBER FRONT AND FRONT-SIDE bulbs/lights on Automobiles?

Anyone got any ideas? Suggestions?

Thanks

[HammerToe]

'Greetings'.

This is HammerToe whose post initiated this thread.

I just thought I would 'report in' to advise all those who were kind enough to contribute suggestions regarding my 'Inoperative Bedroom Slide' and 'Running Light Problems' that the source of the problems has been located and repairs made.

I can't recall *for certain* if I mentioned in anywhere *previously* in this thread, but in my attempts to diagnose/locate the source of the problem and try to repair it on my own, I had come across signs of 'chewing' in the front storage compartment *and* left-hand-side propane tank storage compartment:

a) pieces/'flakes' of/from pieces of orange polyurethane 'pool noodle' that I use to 'jam fit' things stored there (in the front storage compartment) to keep things from moving around while being towed.

b) 'signs, to put it *very* mildly, ELLIPTICAL HOLES about 2.0-2.5" long x 1" wide (at widest)in two places in some black 'Split Flex Wire Loom' wiring protector enclosing a large bundle of wires that, at one end, went through a hole in the lower left-hand-side, back area of the front storage compartment into the underbelly of the trailer and, at the upper end, IN THE FRONT LHS PROPANE TANK AREA, into the 'chin area', and

c) even some signs of chewing - chewed through insulation - of/on wiring wires itself (though no actual breaks/chew-throughs).

At first I suspected 'mice' might be the source of my problems BUT, on further reflection, I tended to dismiss that theory for two reasons:

1. The wiring, particularly the bedroom slide wiring, was/is '10 gauge' and I was doubtful that teeny/tiny MICE could chomp through that large a gauge of wire and

2. There were *no signs of MOUSE 'droppings'*.

Now, I 'had'/experienced, 'around the house and yard', BOTH mice and squirrel infestations and (a) mice tend to poop just about anywhere without breaking stride, it seems, whereas squirrels tend to have 'more class' and do it in more discreet, invisible places.

AND, assuming that it might be squirrels, it was REALLY hard to imagine how they could have gotten 'past'/out of the front storage compartment through the small sized holes that were available/opened up by chewing, through the wire holes, etc.

So, if I didn't mention it, that's why.

Well, anyway, last week I took the trailer into a dealer to have them 'take a crack' at the problem and do some other work I wanted done (Horst Miracle Probes) and I just heard back from them first thing this morning.

Seems it WAS: SQUIRRELS.

They mentioned that they'd had to get into either or both the 'chin area'/nose (cap) to try and find the source of the problem and they told me they'd found 'CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE of SQUIRRELS' that had taken up residence 'somewhere' and chewed up a 'BUNCH' of wires.

They mentioned 'TWO SQUIRRELS' (not sure how they'd figured THAT out unless maybe 'dead'?.

I didn't ask, but also they mentioned finding Pine Cones, etc.

Well, that pretty much confirmed my suspicions, though I'm amazed that they managed to get through 'openings' 'THAT SMALL that they must have used.

(Actually though, there is ALSO a large, like 'LARGE' rectangular opening in the FRAME of the trailer in the EXTREME UPPER LHS of the LHS propane storage compartment that they 'could' have used BUT there was no sign they had and 'there was them holes' in the wire loom so why bother chewing when you've got a big 'door' available. I'm probably giving squirrels too much credit for brains...).

I STRONGLY SUSPECT, and originally suspected 'squirrels' for one other reason - that they managed to get up and into the front storage compartment via the (in this case, LHS) Propane Tank storage compartment which is COMPLETELY OPEN at the bottom.

Now APPARENTLY mice can only jump 'STRAIGHT UP/VERTICALLY' about 12", and it's probably closer to 2' jump, whereas squirrels would have NO PROBLEM making that jump.

And from there...

SO: WHEN I GET MY TRAILER BACK NEXT WEEK (MONDAY), I PLAN ON 'SCREENING OFF' THE BOTTOM OF ***BOTH*** THE LHS AND RHS PROPANE TANK HOLDING COMPARTMENTS WITH 1/4" (MESH) GALVANIZED 'HARDWARE CLOTH' - paid around $10.00 for a 3' x 6' roll at Home Depot.

This is an HD Galvanized Steel Wire Mesh which you need to cut either with wire cutters 'strand by strand' or with Heavy Duty cutters and there ain't no way squirrels are gonna get past that to do it all again.

Anyway:

I just thought I'd report in as to the CAUSE and (suggest) the Wire Hardware Cloth idea in case anyone else 'out there' might like to consider doing something similar to minimize the risk of having a similar unpleasant and probably expensive experience.

Haven't 'seen' the bill yet. Gonna have to see if i might be able to get reimbursed by/through my insurance on the trailer.

Thanks again for the contributions.

[heaterswa]

These hazard warning flashers also fit in the 3 and 4 position perfectly, and could be useful if you have to abandon the trailer on the side of the road for some emergency reason:



I wonder if these will work well with the LED bulbs. The LED bulbs I have put in at my S&B take a second to turn on.

-Bryan

[Allworth]

My center right & left lights (on the skirt, between the wheels) are turn signals.

[Rvpapa]

Fairly good chance the side marker lights are also used as turn signals and therefore interconnected with the brake/turn circuits.
Art.

[NMDriver]

Maybe things are different for your rig but on mine each clearance light is individually grounded at the socket with a short pigtail and powered from a common positive.

Every time I have had a clearance light not work it has been the ground wire.

BTW: The rear side clearance lights are suppose to be red not amber. I assume that was a typo on your part in describing the rear ones as amber.

[texas_train]

seems like a long shot but I would first try just hooking up the tow vehicle and making sure everything works normally!?!? ie as in do the side marker lights only function with the blinkers? Some trailer lights that utilize less bulbs come on but blink OFF during turn signaling.

[HammerToe]

Pins 4 and 3 (red and brown) in your diagram *ARE* what I jumpered with a 5 amp fuse AND that do NOT result in the aforementioned FOUR running lights 'coming on'. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have used 'numbers' to refer to the pins as it may well be the case that different folks might 'number' the pins differently.

Sorry about the length but, I had two objectives in mind:

(a) to describe the problem *completely accurately* and

(b) to describe EXACTLY the steps I had taken to try and diagnose the 'problem?'. (Assuming I really have one; maybe there's a reason things work (or not) this way?).

My experience has been that if one does not take the time to do this, one frequently has to 'deal' with it anyway in another fashion: a long, 'back and forth' dialog of the general nature: "...have you tried this...yes I have... have you tried THIS... YES......

As I said, the things I found 'interesting' are:

(a) why FOUR lights in total?

(b) 'why the SYMMETRY' and

(c) why, using a multimeter to check for 'continuity' in various ways did NOT yield ANY indication of a 'Path to Power' *OR* a 'Path to Ground' for BOTH OF the two (MIDDLE LHS and RHS) lights I tested, UNLIKE OTHER RUNNING LIGHTS on the trailer, 8' feet away (FRONT LHS and LHS)?

That's why I was (and still am) wondering - that perhaps those 4 lights might be part of (say) the turn signal system or something. Maybe 'they' require pins 4 AND (5 OR 6) to come on???

I intend to give this idea a try this morning.

BOTH 'No Power" AND 'No Ground' detectable at FOUR lights in this observable symmetry seems too much of a coincidence for my liking.

[cpaulsen]

Pins 4 and 5 will not get you there....the post with the diagram is the right one

[Old-Biscuit]

Not sure what you are labeling 'pin 4 & 5' or how you have only partial power (posting was a bit rambling/confusing)


BUT if you hold the trailer cord and look right at the end of plug the 2 top positions when jumpered will allow power to all 'running/clearances' lights

That would be 11 O'clock and 1 O'clock positions (12V power from trailer battery and tail/running lights)