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what happened to taking pride in your work

Goostoff
Explorer
Explorer
The wife and I 150 miles one way yesterday to check out the Keystone dealer with a good selection. We had a certain floor plan we wanted and they had it. Now I know Montana isn't really top of the line trailers but they are what I consider a high end trailer for the average Joe. We ended up going through 7 Montana 5th wheels and every one of them had cabinet hinges that were not tightened and when you opened them the door fell off. These are 2017 trailers and should not be falling apart on the dealers lot. I was very disappointed.

We did love the window on the front cap though.
1993 Chevy C3500
2005 Cedar Creek 34RLTS
52 REPLIES 52

GoPackGo
Explorer
Explorer
It was very apparent to me that things had changed at GM many years ago and I always suspected that the company was no longer being run by the guys who designed and built the GTO, SD-455 Trans Am, Corvette, Z-28 Camaro and the 454 Chevelle. I wondered if the company was being run by guys out of the finance department instead. Unfortunately, you just confirmed that.

It was always interesting to me that the Japanese manufacturers embraced Deming's concepts, but he was kind of ignored back here. As I recall, his philosophy on quality control is that quality should be built in at each stage of the manufacturing process. Each worker performs QA, it is not added on at the end of the line after the product has been built.

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Jayco-noslide wrote:
Better quality might force present manufacturers to improve. Would they cost more? Maybe, but the cars didn't.

You have asked a question that demonstrated the source of most cost increases and minimal quality. Business school graduates. How to increase costs and reduce quality? Cost controls.

This conflict existed between business schools and William Edward Deming over 40 years ago. It goes directly to a simple question. What is the purpose of every company? Business school grads say profits. Product people (and Deming) say the product.

GM engineers developed a four cylinder engine that had as much horsepower as a V-8 ... in the early 1970s. Had GM let engineers design cars, then all GM products would have 4 cylinder engines. Last longer. Require less gas. Have as much or more horsepower. Make almost no noise. Cost less. Result in products that can be exported. Maintains or increased the American standard of living. GM cost controlled it.

Honda and Toyota started making those products 20 years later - in the early 1990s. GM still will not put that innovation in some products today. Because innovation increases costs - on a spread sheet. Innovation is the only source of decreased costs and increased quality. Same innovation increases costs on a business school grad's spread sheet.

If your RV manufacturer has inferior quality, then innovation is stifled by cost controls. Bosses comes from the finance department - not from where the work gets done.

Every major Japanese company cites Deming as a major reason for their success. Did you know about Deming? Or have concepts taught in the business schools kept you naive? Deming and business schools were arch enemies. Business schools teach profits and cost controls. Deming taught innovation that creates lower costs, higher quality, longer lasting products, neat new ideas, and expanding markets.

Therein lies the reason why an RV company has inferior products. As indicated by a top boss who does not come from where the work gets done.

Jayco-noslide
Explorer
Explorer
It's too bad that Honda and Toyota don't start making RV's like they did cars many years ago. Better quality might force present manufacturers to improve. Would they cost more? Maybe, but the cars didn't.
Jayco-noslide

Cummins12V98
Explorer III
Explorer III
larry barnhart wrote:
No matter good or bad a finish carpenter is the orders come from the top. I asked when hired to finish a custom home this question. Do you want the casing to fit or just throw them to the jamb and wall and hit a few nails or fit. We would like them to fit. Correct answer. I retired working for them. Pride is awesome but the cost does add up or maybe not if the call backs evens the cost.

chevman


When I finished my Medical and Dental Clinics I rarely came bacf after client move in. They would also meet me with a smile if seen in public. There are people willing to pay for quality but sadly many don't even know what quality is!
2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

larry_barnhart
Explorer
Explorer
No matter good or bad a finish carpenter is the orders come from the top. I asked when hired to finish a custom home this question. Do you want the casing to fit or just throw them to the jamb and wall and hit a few nails or fit. We would like them to fit. Correct answer. I retired working for them. Pride is awesome but the cost does add up or maybe not if the call backs evens the cost.

chevman
chevman
2019 rockwood 34 ft fifth wheel sold
2005 3500 2wd duramax CC dually
prodigy



KSH 55 inbed fuel tank

scanguage II
TD-EOC
Induction Overhaul Kit
TST tire monitors
FMCA # F479110

lee_worsdell
Explorer
Explorer
They don't take time or pride any more. I have had my unit back to dealer 3 times for leaking slides ,shower leaking .bubble in roof but they say its fine. awning coming off wall ,ac wired backwards, motor in slide replaced, list goes on and on. This is 2014 bought last October. Junk

PatnRich
Explorer
Explorer


We looked at Montana's in 05. I am a Finish Carpenter and know what things SHOULD look like. First impression was this is really nice, then I started to look past the bling and it was pathetic to say the least. Every time I mentioned an issue to the Salesman he said "we can fix that". Why the HE!! would they not have it "FIXED" before putting it on the lot???

I have seen this in many RV's we have looked at over the years but the Montana's of that era took the cake!

Ended up with an Avion Platinum that was a good rig but the suspension started to fall off!
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I too am a finish carpenter (40+ years) and if you think the workmanship is poor in towables, check out the park models.
2010 Montana 3400RL, 2011 Ford F350,CC,SB,16K Pullrite SuperGlide

blofgren
Explorer
Explorer
We have noticed this with newer RV's too along with ridiculous price tags.

We ended up buying a 7 year old unit that is top quality, 4 season, fully loaded with the floor plan we wanted for about 1/3 of what these newer poor quality units are priced at. Yes we have had to put some elbow grease into it along with new tires, batteries, etc but we now have a superb unit that we love. I have also done a ton of upgrades to it including hard wired surge protector, vent covers, complete LED light upgrade in and out, etc that has really modernized it and made it much more enjoyable.
2013 Ram 3500 Megacab DRW Laramie 4x4, 6.7L Cummins, G56, 3.73, Maximum Steel, black lthr, B&W RVK3670 hitch, Retrax, Linex, and a bunch of options incl. cargo camera
2008 Corsair Excella Platinum 34.5 CKTS fifth wheel with winter package & disc brakes

Goostoff
Explorer
Explorer
Careful what you wish for. The only foreign competition I see will be coming from China and may god have mercy on all our souls if that happens. Its bad enough that most of the components they are already made of came from China
1993 Chevy C3500
2005 Cedar Creek 34RLTS

3oaks
Explorer
Explorer
Jayco-noslide wrote:
If cars, SUV's were made like RV's we would laugh and not buy.
It was foreign competition in the auto industry that forced our own American auto industry to stop producing junk like they did in the 70s. Unfortunately for us consumers, there is no foreign competition in the RV industry here in the U.S.

mark1228
Explorer
Explorer
GoPackGo wrote:
I think that many people believe shopping for an RV is like shopping for a car or truck, maybe because they all have wheels. I know that I can go to just about any new car lot, buy a vehicle, drive it off the lot, and the odds are that I won't need to take it back for any warranty repairs. Sadly, that's not how it works when purchasing an RV. You are pretty much guaranteed that you will find multiple things that need to be fixed.

I keep hoping that Honda will decide to build RVs . . . . .


Wow, you are way luckier than me. EVERY new vehicle I have ever bought has had multiple recalls and warranty issues. My 2004 MGC Duramax was towed in to the shop 9 times in 3 years. My 2013 Altima was in the shop for warranty or recall 6 times is 2 years and 25k miles. My 2015 F350 has been in for warranty 3 times and still has issues with 12k miles on it. My take is that ANY product can and will have issues, otherwise you wouldn't need warranty

GoPackGo
Explorer
Explorer
I think that many people believe shopping for an RV is like shopping for a car or truck, maybe because they all have wheels. I know that I can go to just about any new car lot, buy a vehicle, drive it off the lot, and the odds are that I won't need to take it back for any warranty repairs. Sadly, that's not how it works when purchasing an RV. You are pretty much guaranteed that you will find multiple things that need to be fixed.

I keep hoping that Honda will decide to build RVs . . . . .

time2roll
Nomad
Nomad
Consumer wants a low price at any cost. If it cost $3,000 more you would just move to the competition and not even look. OK maybe some would look but you get the point.
Else we would all be pulling an Airstream.

Calicajun
Explorer
Explorer
Workers have become lazy and don't care, even the sales staff has become lazy. We just spent three days at the LA RV show looking at new units. Now when I did sales, it was part of my job to me to clean up/fix up everything for sale. So that the customer saw was the best product for sell.

Now you walk into a RV with sawdust in almost every cabinet, loose screws and all the say is "well it has to be cleaned up the workers aren't that good". You want to sell a 50 to 70 thousand dollar unit and you can't even pick up a dust pan. Sure I trust your word and service department.

Explains why we have been looking for the last year for a new RV.
2014 Heartland Wildness 2775RB, 2015 Ram 2500 4x4 Mega Cab

Jayco-noslide
Explorer
Explorer
If cars, SUV's were made like RV's we would laugh and not buy.
Jayco-noslide