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1987 Establishment P30 starts but dies in idle

Ryan7361
Explorer
Explorer
I have a 1987 Establishment P30. It will start and run, but as soon as I take my foot off the gas it stalls out. It started during a trip when I began to lose power going up a hill. Things got better after the hill, but 2 or 3 hills later we stalled on the side of the road and had to be towed home. It's a chevy 454
I've replaced all the:
-fuel filters
-and put in a new mechanical fuel pump.
-sprayed "gum out" into the carburetor


Any ideas for an Austin area mobile mechanic?
Ryan
43 REPLIES 43

jyrostng
Explorer
Explorer
"Are you sure this is gonna work for an engine with port fuel injection and is the external pump going to suck fuel through the bad internal unit, as well? "


I had to drop the tank to get at the top to change my pump. Mine had a broken hose on the old pump inside the tank, I don't think a external pump would have fixed it.
2000 F53 Southwind 32v

Wes_Tausend
Explorer
Explorer
Ryan7361 wrote:
UPDATE:
I have my ship back! In the end, I broke down and got a new carburetor from NAPA, and it runs great. I had a local old-school mechanic put the new one in for me. In the final analysis, I had a bad in tank fuel pump and a clogged 30 year old carburetor. How could both happen at the same time? Maybe the failed fuel pump sent a bunch of garbage to the carb? Anyway, I'm thinking about putting in one of those fuel filter/water separators like this one http://www.dutton-lainson.com/proddetail.php?prod=56591
Any thoughts? I'm just looking for ways to keep things as clean as possible.
Also, I need to change the oil. How much oil and what type does a 7.4L 454 V8 take? (the dipstick says 10W-30)


Ryan,

Congratulations! The water/fuel separator won't hurt anything and may help the carburator when the unit is parked for long periods. Sometimes metallic salts (from water) clog jets, very hard to dissolve when cleaned.

If the fuel tank is not kept full when parked, changes (drops) in outside temperature can cause an increased water condensation on the generously available bare tank walls above the fuel level. Once the condensation occurs, the rivulets of water run down the wall and end up beneath the fuel since water is heavier. These drops of water then stay liquid because the fuel seals them from re-evaporation and the air in the tank becomes dry because of this "powered" humidity loss. Whenever there is again high humidity in the general atmosphere (surrounding air outside the tank), the new humidity both migrates (diffuses) to the openly-vented tank and on top of that, the tank breathes with temp change. The condensing process starts all over again with fresh, new wet air. The alcohol now often found in fuel tends to absorb some of this water in suspension, but this is limited and the water in alcohol is corrosive itself when fully saturated. Mostly that means the raw water accumulates in a puddle at the bottom of the tank... right by the sump.

This condensation accumulation is less prominent in newer tank designs because the fuel tanks are semi-sealed from the atmosphere to prevent fuel "stink", i.e. pollution. This provided the fuel cap is tight and many have experienced a check engine light when they are not. Replacement air (replaces fuel volume) in newer design fuel tanks is automatically allowed in, but not out, unless the engine is running whereby the fuel vapors, having been caught by carbon canister, are eventually efficiently burned by the engine. The computer actually reduces fuel injection flow to accomodate vapor so now we benefit from being able to burn, and use, the fuel that was once evaporated and lost to the atmosphere. Ingenious, but partly why engine service has now become a scientific engineering feat.

One other reason to always keep stored tanks full is that the same condensation can occur on the mechanical/electrical fuel float sending unit and cause it to stick. Thereafter, the fuel guage is inaccurate if it works at all. The corrosion also affects fuel pumps. This is a common occurance on C4 Corvettes, all of which used sealed tanks and fuel injection. I know, my wife had one and the previous owner apparently did not keep a full tank during storage. Fortunately the entire fuel sender/fuel pump lifts right out the top of the rear deck on these cars (via fuel filler assembly) in about 20 minutes.

Wes
...
Days spent camping are not subtracted from one's total.
- 2019 Leprechaun 311FS Class C
- Linda, Wes and Quincy the Standard Brown Poodle

BULLETLS1
Explorer
Explorer
I HAVE A DATE WITH ETERNITY, AND I DONยดT WANT TO BE LATE!

BULLETLS1
Explorer
Explorer
There ks a last filter and is located INSIDE the carb!, is located behind the banjo bolt that connects the fuel hose to rhe carburator chasis.
I HAVE A DATE WITH ETERNITY, AND I DONยดT WANT TO BE LATE!

Jim
Explorer
Explorer
Good for you for finding the issue.

Road trip!!
Jim@HiTek
Have shop, will travel!
Visit my travel & RV repair blog site. Subscribe for emailed updates.
Winnebago Journey, '02
Cat 330HP Diesel, 36.5', two slides.

jerseyjim
Explorer
Explorer
Glad you're back! As far as I know, a water/fuel separator is mostly for diesels. Can it be used for a gasser (your 454?) I don't know.
As far as correct oil...if the dipstick says 10-30...use 10-30. I would suggest...due to the age (30 years) of the motor to keep using fossil, altho the more expensive syn would do fine. Don't forget the filter (any name brand will do) and grease the chassis. Keep a schedule (every 3-4000 miles or twice a year) but the bottom line is to USE the motorhome. Letting it sit for months at a time does more damage than anything else.

Ryan7361
Explorer
Explorer
UPDATE:
I have my ship back! In the end, I broke down and got a new carburetor from NAPA, and it runs great. I had a local old-school mechanic put the new one in for me. In the final analysis, I had a bad in tank fuel pump and a clogged 30 year old carburetor. How could both happen at the same time? Maybe the failed fuel pump sent a bunch of garbage to the carb? Anyway, I'm thinking about putting in one of those fuel filter/water separators like this one http://www.dutton-lainson.com/proddetail.php?prod=56591
Any thoughts? I'm just looking for ways to keep things as clean as possible.
Also, I need to change the oil. How much oil and what type does a 7.4L 454 V8 take? (the dipstick says 10W-30)

tropical36
Explorer
Explorer
Jim@HiTek wrote:
The engine is a 190HP Cummins Diesel. It's in a Fleetwood pusher. The external pump was installed within 2 feet of the engines lift pump. So it's drawing fuel some 30 odd feet. There was an ignition wire available on the engine so supplying power was trivial.

The Airtex pump from NAPA I used is rated at 8-12 GPM. I used brass plumbing to adapt the pump size to the hose size. Whether you need a more powerful pump or not is your question. Still, think it would be available somewhere.

Here's a link to a high pressure external pump, note that the power is suppose to come from the emergency fuel shut off...if you have one:

High pressure pump...

Looks like a winner.
Thanks for the info and the link for just in case.
Now, does anyone know what the fuel pressure requirements are for a Chevy 7.4 Vortec engine are?
"We are often so caught up in our destination that we forget to appreciate the journey."

07 Revolution LE 40E_Spartan MM_06 400HP C9 CAT_Allison 3000.

Dinghy_2010 Jeep Wrangler JKU ISLANDER.

1998 36ft. National Tropi-Cal Chevy Model 6350 (Sold)

Jim
Explorer
Explorer
The engine is a 190HP Cummins Diesel. It's in a Fleetwood pusher. The external pump was installed within 2 feet of the engines lift pump. So it's drawing fuel some 30 odd feet. There was an ignition wire available on the engine so supplying power was trivial.

The Airtex pump from NAPA I used is rated at 8-12 GPM. I used brass plumbing to adapt the pump size to the hose size. Whether you need a more powerful pump or not is your question. Still, think it would be available somewhere.



Here's a link to a high pressure external pump, note that the power is suppose to come from the emergency fuel shut off...if you have one:

High pressure pump...
Jim@HiTek
Have shop, will travel!
Visit my travel & RV repair blog site. Subscribe for emailed updates.
Winnebago Journey, '02
Cat 330HP Diesel, 36.5', two slides.

tropical36
Explorer
Explorer
Jim@HiTek wrote:
Tropical36 wrote:
Are you sure this is gonna work for an engine with port fuel injection and is the external pump going to suck fuel through the bad internal unit, as well?


AFAIK, there was only one Ford in-tank pump back in the early '80's that wouldn't allow fuel to be sucked thru it...and that was only available for a year. Ford pulled it from the shelves and from factories after the uproar it caused with mechanics and suppliers. Any other pump that would not allow that would have some rare internal blockage issue.

Am I sure it will work in YOUR particular situation? No way. I'm pretty sure it will work in most situations of bad in-tank pumps though.

It is under $100 for the pump and plumbing, takes less than an hour to install, and when I did mine, I thought, well, it's sure cheaper and much, much less hassle to just try it then it is to drop the tank. And if it doesn't work, I'm not out much.

Turned out it worked fine. And has been for 11 years now. Not that that's proof it will work for anyone else, but it worked for me.

What were/are the particulars for your application with the engine specs. and whether gas or diesel?
"We are often so caught up in our destination that we forget to appreciate the journey."

07 Revolution LE 40E_Spartan MM_06 400HP C9 CAT_Allison 3000.

Dinghy_2010 Jeep Wrangler JKU ISLANDER.

1998 36ft. National Tropi-Cal Chevy Model 6350 (Sold)

Jim
Explorer
Explorer
Tropical36 wrote:
Are you sure this is gonna work for an engine with port fuel injection and is the external pump going to suck fuel through the bad internal unit, as well?


AFAIK, there was only one Ford in-tank pump back in the early '80's that wouldn't allow fuel to be sucked thru it...and that was only available for a year. Ford pulled it from the shelves and from factories after the uproar it caused with mechanics and suppliers. Any other pump that would not allow that would have some rare internal blockage issue.

Am I sure it will work in YOUR particular situation? No way. I'm pretty sure it will work in most situations of bad in-tank pumps though.

It is under $100 for the pump and plumbing, takes less than an hour to install, and when I did mine, I thought, well, it's sure cheaper and much, much less hassle to just try it then it is to drop the tank. And if it doesn't work, I'm not out much.

Turned out it worked fine. And has been for 11 years now. Not that that's proof it will work for anyone else, but it worked for me.
Jim@HiTek
Have shop, will travel!
Visit my travel & RV repair blog site. Subscribe for emailed updates.
Winnebago Journey, '02
Cat 330HP Diesel, 36.5', two slides.

tropical36
Explorer
Explorer
jyrostng wrote:
My 89 South Wind has a in tank pump with a regulator by the frame rail, easy to change when the tank is about empty. Mine has a qudrajet.

What are you calling easy and is this by dropping the tank or going through the floor on top?
"We are often so caught up in our destination that we forget to appreciate the journey."

07 Revolution LE 40E_Spartan MM_06 400HP C9 CAT_Allison 3000.

Dinghy_2010 Jeep Wrangler JKU ISLANDER.

1998 36ft. National Tropi-Cal Chevy Model 6350 (Sold)

tropical36
Explorer
Explorer
Jim@HiTek wrote:
Also, you don't have to replace a bad in-tank fuel pump. Just buy a universal external fuel pump from NAPA. The pump and some brass fittings, plus some fuel hose comes in under $100.

Are you sure this in gonna work for an engine with port fuel injection and is the external pump going to suck fuel through the bad internal unit, as well?
"We are often so caught up in our destination that we forget to appreciate the journey."

07 Revolution LE 40E_Spartan MM_06 400HP C9 CAT_Allison 3000.

Dinghy_2010 Jeep Wrangler JKU ISLANDER.

1998 36ft. National Tropi-Cal Chevy Model 6350 (Sold)

jyrostng
Explorer
Explorer
My 89 South Wind has a in tank pump with a regulator by the frame rail, easy to change when the tank is about empty. Mine has a qudrajet.
2000 F53 Southwind 32v