Can I Pick Your Brains About Smaller Class C's?

[ol__yeller]

See my sig for what we currently have. Due to some serious health issues we are looking at trading to a Class C. I have been lurking here a lot lately. DW is going to help with the driving and the smaller is the better for her comfort level. A B seems too small for us as we like a somewhat generous bathroom/shower. We do need a queen bed at least. I like the class Cs that have a rear bed. Cabover bunk would be OK for the occasional Grandkid but not for us. I also love my V10 in my TV so I think a Ford chassis is what I'd prefer. Before setting foot on a lot, I'd like to have some knowledge from you experts. We might look new if we can afford one but reality says we are probably looking at a rig 5 years old or less. I really don't want to go over 24-25 feet. I'd also like a sitting chair or sofa besides the dinette. Is there something out there that hits what we want? My budget is probably around $30-50K depending upon condition, year and mileage. I'd really appreciate any knowledge you can share.

[sand_crab]

It is probably too late to do much good since the discussion is 2 months old. But the View/Profile Class C has a Queen size you can walk around both sides. Bath that is accessible, and 2 slide for room and comfort. It is 25'5" long. Everything is accessible with the slides in and useable. I love it, hope this helps in some small way.gm

[ol__yeller]

SkiMore wrote:
How about Forest River 2250? Small class C. Full queen in slide. partial walk around bed.

http://www.forestriverinc.com/ClassCMotorhomes/Sunseeker/default.aspx?model=sunl&page=floorplandetai...

Dinteete is on the wrong side for us! Nice compact RV otherwise!

[SkiMore]

How about Forest River 2250? Small class C. Full queen in slide. partial walk around bed.

http://www.forestriverinc.com/ClassCMotorhomes/Sunseeker/default.aspx?model=sunl&page=floorplandetai...

[ol__yeller]

Our search has been a learning experience. We went from looking at small C's to small A's back to C's under 30'. I have discovered that right now is probably the absolute worst time to be looking for an RV. Everything we have looked at is either way overpriced or beat beyond redemption. I am resigned to losing this camping season. Our plan is to keep looking but plan to actively re-enter the RV market in the fall when the inventory is hopefully better. We may even wait another year to add to what we can afford for our new RV.

What we have found to be most desirable for us is something under 30' with a walk around queen, a large shower, a sofa, the dinette on the passenger side, and an overhead bunk for the grandkids, not an entertainment center. I am thinking that I may have to step up to a new RV to get what we want. I was hoping to avoid an RV payment but that now appears to be unlikely if we are to continue in this lifestyle. On the plus side, it is nice having a big chunk of money in the bank. The hardest step for me so far was giving up our cheap and secure RV parking spot as they now have a waiting list. C'est la vie!

[Bordercollie]

If you want a rear RV-queen sized bed, you will probably need to get a 27 foot bumper-to-bumper rig similar to our 2004 Tioga 26Q. Bed is sideways with left side against rear wall. The Tioga/Jamboree 26Q is no longer made by Fleetwood but there are a number of used ones available. Similar newer models usually have a slide. If your wife must drive, she will have to accept a little longer rig than a 24 footer. If either of you have arthritis etc., sleeping in the overhead or on jacknife sofa or convertible dinette is not comfotable. Also, short rigs have little inside cabinet space and little outside storage space, meaning you have a lot of clutter and put stuff in shower and in the aisle.
The older we get, a comfortable rear bed becomes essential.

[alehar]

Ron, thank you for the very informative overview of Class C models. My question, since the best Class C recommended feature is a solid fiberglass body to eliminate seams and potential leaks, what can one look for if deciding on an entry price class A model. The option
of one fiberglass shell doesn't exist. What about the seams on their construction and water issues? Thanks Trish

[Sea_Dog]

ron.dittmer wrote:
Nice story Sea Dog. Love it....Keep it going!

Thank you.
This is not my MH,
but it is identical.

http://vancouver.canadianlisted.com/cars/travelaire-21-5-class-c-motorhome-12950-bunraby_3521333.htm...

[ol__yeller]

Thanks but sorry, I am not a Toyota guy.

[ol__yeller]

ron.dittmer wrote:

ol' yeller wrote:
I'm a little nervious about what I have been reading in other posts here about leakage in the overhead area. Do they all leak at some point or is regular maintence sufficient to keep the bunk area dry? On any prospective RV I plan to check that area very carefully.

And you should be concerned. Checking one for leaks is a good starting point. But what about thereafter?

I post this once in a while. It seems due and surely appropriate to your concerns, so here is a very long read for you.

Ron

--------------------

When shopping for any conventional class-C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. What methods are built to last, and what methods are built to be most affordable.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" and/or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water penetration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets in, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Mold can also form and then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a Reliably Well Sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.75 to 2 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, door, roof-top vents and a/c unit, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are limited in size.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans, many thousands of times. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lower stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. Winnebago's View Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Phantom applies a partial bucket concept. If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, that extra bed would be extremely important.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after the caulk has dried out from age & sun, as well as fatigue from the change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down the wall a few inches. The fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A 5 Sided Rear Wall Cap
This 5 sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also rare exception like the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of those three brands since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter is the least powered chassis. People who tow with a Sprinter, take it slower.

If considering a recent “small” class B+/C motor home, here is a comparison between the two main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years, and even more anticipated with the upcoming Ford T-Series chassis. The general public hopes it will become available for the RV industry. It is kind-of like a Sprinter in size and fuel economy, but hopeful to be much more affordable.

The Chevy GMC 3500/4500 Chassis
I do not understand why this chassis is not more popular. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches to store your rig, the Chevy/GMC adds an additional 9" to the front bumper compared to the Ford. I learned that researching rigs that could fit in my 25'-0" deep garage. By default, the Ford gave me 9 more inches to work with. If you examine my motor home in my garage HERE, you will see an extra 9 inches in length might have been detrimental.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, Sprinter, & GMC/Chevy
Ford - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Srinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
GMC/Chevy - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft

Ron, without question that was the most concise,informative, and helpful post I have read in my 10 years of being a member here. Thanks!

[ron_dittmer]

Nice story Sea Dog. Love it....Keep it going!

[Sea_Dog]

I just today spent eighteen hundred dollars on my /93 23ft classC.
Tranny flush, new tires, new battery, general checking and tweaking.

Havo owned the unit since 2001, have been all over Canada and the US.

Have never found a unit that we would trade for.
Paid $22,000.00 in 2000,
could get eight or ten easily today.

Rig has 258000 kilometers,
About 160,000 miles.
Runs like a top,
never uses oil between changes.

[ron_dittmer]

crasster wrote:
Still love the Toyota line. Love our 4 cylinder.... But many people like the V-6. Super reliable - a snap to drive.

We bought THIS 1983 Toyota/Mirage carbureted 2.4L 4-cylinder brand new in the fall of 1983 for $12,225 and owned it for 24 years. It yielded a fraction over 20mpg, trip averaging. It had a 4 speed manual transmission, no a/c of either kind and no power steering. It had no bathroom, no stove or oven, no plumbing other than a windshield washer pump that ran water from a carry-on water jug. The gray water drained onto the street. The fridge was a built-in ice box that went through ice daily so I cut it out from the back side of the cabinet and we placed a nice ice chest behind the fridge door. I called our RVing "Hardshell Tenting".

We bought it when we became parents at age 25 and it served us well until knocking on age 50. The final straw was in 2006, driving through South Dakota in 117 degree heat. We drove with the windows up and wet towels on our heads. My wife with MS was on the edge of passing out.

I sold it in 2007 for $7600. We lost $4625 in 24 years. It was well loved by us and the kids, but we really did need to upgrade if we were going to continue with these types of vacations. Funny that my wife always says we should have kept it. I think she forgets easy 🙂

[crasster]

Still love the Toyota line. Love our 4 cylinder.... But many people like the V-6. Super reliable - a snap to drive.

[ron_dittmer]

ol' yeller wrote:
I'm a little nervious about what I have been reading in other posts here about leakage in the overhead area. Do they all leak at some point or is regular maintence sufficient to keep the bunk area dry? On any prospective RV I plan to check that area very carefully.

And you should be concerned. Checking one for leaks is a good starting point. But what about thereafter?

I post this once in a while. It seems due and surely appropriate to your concerns, so here is a very long read for you.

Ron

--------------------

When shopping for any conventional class-C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. What methods are built to last, and what methods are built to be most affordable.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" and/or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water penetration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets in, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Mold can also form and then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a Reliably Well Sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.75 to 2 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, door, roof-top vents and a/c unit, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are limited in size.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans, many thousands of times. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lower stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. Winnebago's View Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Phantom applies a partial bucket concept. If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, that extra bed would be extremely important.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after the caulk has dried out from age & sun, as well as fatigue from the change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down the wall a few inches. The fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A 5 Sided Rear Wall Cap
This 5 sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also rare exception like the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of those three brands since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter is the least powered chassis. People who tow with a Sprinter, take it slower.

If considering a recent “small” class B+/C motor home, here is a comparison between the two main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years, and even more anticipated with the upcoming Ford T-Series chassis. The general public hopes it will become available for the RV industry. It is kind-of like a Sprinter in size and fuel economy, but hopeful to be much more affordable.

The Chevy GMC 3500/4500 Chassis
I do not understand why this chassis is not more popular. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches to store your rig, the Chevy/GMC adds an additional 9" to the front bumper compared to the Ford. I learned that researching rigs that could fit in my 25'-0" deep garage. By default, the Ford gave me 9 more inches to work with. If you examine my motor home in my garage HERE, you will see an extra 9 inches in length might have been detrimental.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, Sprinter, & GMC/Chevy
Ford - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Srinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
GMC/Chevy - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft