Comparing Born Free to Phoenix Cruiser for purchase

[Travelin2]

We are looking to buy a used small rv. Today we are going to look at a couple of Born Free motorhomes. One is a 2004 24RB with Ford 6.0 liter Powerstroke diesel engine and propane genny. They are asking $29,900. The other is a 2007 24RB with the V10 gas engine. This one is advertised at $34,900. We are comparing them to a Phoenix Cruiser 2301 with a Ford 5.4 Triton gas engine and no generator, which we like the looks of. This one is too far away to look at but is in impeccable shape. They are asking $27,900.

We would welcome any insights or opinions you might have about these.

Some questions I have....Fuel mileage on diesel?....enough improvement over the V10 to make up for the difference in fuel price?.....What about diesel noise in the cab while driving?.....Anyone know if there were major construction changes in the Born Free between '04 and '07?.....Is that 5.4 Triton engine going to be a dog in the Phoenix Cruiser?.....Has anyone ever slept on one of those Phoenix Cruiser triple jackknife sofas? How's your back?...If you have knowledge or opinions about anything on these rigs, I would be glad to hear it.

[pnichols]

John ... did you get a chance to look at that 2005 Winnebago Itasca Spirit brochure I gave the link to earlier in this discussion? If you do take a look, note the 24V (24 foot length) configuration in the specifications and floorplans sections. Winnebago stopped offering this exact model some time ago, with the last year being 2006 in a 24V configuration for their Winnebago Spirit and Outlook model lines.

They're kind of hard to find, but they are out there.

Here's some construction and design aspects of the 24V Itasca Class C and 24V Outlook Class C that came stock ... or were available as options ... on them:

- No slides
- Permanent queen bed in the back, plus queen overhead cab bed, plus a dinette that makes into a full bed
- Single piece fiberglass roof that is crowned - not flat - with rolled over edges the entire length along each side
- Storage tanks often larger than other Class C RV's of this length ... 29 gal GW, 39 gal BW, 43 gal FW, 18 gal propane
- The GW and BW tank gauges are external ones that measure through the tank walls ... so are less likely to foul from gunk ... hence more accurate day-in/day-out
- Can be found on either the Ford E350 chassis or optional (and rare) Ford E450 chassis ... 2005 and later having the 5-speed computer controlled transmission behind the V10
- Seven(7) lockable steel walled and carpet lined external storage cabinets, with two of them being long ones transverse across the chassis for shovels, fishing poles, beach umbrellas, etc.
- High ground clearance everywhere, with no plumbing or the built-in Onan generator hanging lower than the chassis walls ... all external plumbing is way up high
- All electricall hook-up and sewage plumbing is in one lockable outside storage cabinet ... no bumper box storage of the drain line
- A spare tire stored in the rear up in between the chassis frame rails just like in a pickup triuck ... so plenty of room for a larger than stock tire if you want to switch tire size
- A full height shower with an accordian door to separate it from the commode
- The bathroom sink drains into the BW tank - not the GW tank - so as to better balance the filling of these tanks
- Plenty of 120 V AC and 12 V DC receptacles in the coach
- Winnebago's built-in Onan generator installation design provides for fairly quiet operation inside and out ... and can be tolerated running for hours when inside the coach
- Microwave, oven, three burner cooktop with vent fan, and foldout counter extension in the galley
- Six(6) cubic foot refrigerator
- Digital controller for the furnace and the air conditioner
- Full size dinette so four(4) people can comfortably eat, talk, or play board games there
- Each dinette seat has it's full underneath volume for storage ... no furnace or water heater under the seats
- The rear bed and cabover bed have privacy curtains
- The cab has a curtain that can be drawn to separate it from the coach for better maintenance of coach temperature in cold or hot weather
- The weather band/CD cab radio has a switch on the dash for it to be powered from either the engine battery or coach batteries
- The coach battery storage area is right under the step so as to not take up storage cabinet space and so that the batteries can be checked from inside the coach
- The coach battery storage area is large enough for up to two(2) Group 31 deep cycle batteries or one(1) 8D deep cycle battery
- In addition to speakers in the cab, the weather ban/CD cab radio has coach speakers above the dinette and above the cooktop in the galley
- The flooring in the coach is a combination of vinyl and carpeting ... for both easy cleaning in the galley and comfort/ambiance in the dinnette and lounge chair feet areas
- The lounge chair swivels to face the galley or dinette or forward ... and slides forward/back to permit using a dinette seat as a foot stool
- The forward facing dinette seat and lounge chair have seat belts ... for a total of five(5) belted seats for travel in the motorhome
- Some of them may have the important options of heated tanks, a powered coach step, and pre-wiring for dual batteries ... in addition to other options
- The rear coach walls start angling immediately from the rear tires back up to the rear coach wall/rear bumper ... providing for a good rear approach angle for going up sloped driveways

[Travelin2]

ol'yeller, I'm glad to hear it's a good rig for you. The owner of the one we are going to look at Monday(it's a 2007) told me that during those years the manufacturer put a clear coating of some kind of armoring around the lower portion of the rig to protect from rock chips. I guess it only comes up 18 inches or so. He said it was found to be a less than desirable product as it discolors with age. According to him it can be removed without damaging the paint. Did/does yours have this? Have you heard of the stuff?

[ol__yeller]

We have a 2008 Aspect 26A and love it. There is gobs of room behind the driver's seat so you can recline the seat for comfort while driving. The shaped dinette is very comfortable to sit at as well as sleep on. The quality of construction is well above average. having side windows in the slideout brings in a lot of light.

Here are a few shortcomings. Look for clearcoat peeling, especially along the radius where the sides meet the roof and the front cap. Also the bathroom is very tight for anyone who is not tiny. We decided to overlook those issues to get everything else we wanted. No regrets yet after 2 years. Ours has 44 K miles on it.

[Travelin2]

We are in a bit of a soul searching mode. Finding the dedicated main level bed, a shower without the tub, and good seating/eating/food prep area is tricky. The Phoenix Cruisers are hard to find used. The Born Free I haven't seen without having to climb to the top bed. The Coach House (built in the town we live in) is so overpriced for us that we stopped looking at them.(kinda) The Winnebago/Cambria line is more assembly line construction but there seems to be more used ones out there that we can cash out. The post by "Pops",above, gives me confidence that the Winnebago may be our answer. We did own a class A by Winnebago several years ago and liked it.(just too big to go where we want to go). Thanks for all the input. Each persons view seems to spark some additional considerations.

[John_S_]

The 26 foot born free has a dedicated rear bed. I sold my 24 foot rear bath and will be buying a 26 foot version with the dedicated rear bath. The only difference in going above 24 feet in traveling is you will not fit into a pull in parking space. A 24 foot coach is about the size of my long bed crew cab dually. I am not going with slides as they eat up storage inside in exchange for a bit of floor room. The bed side is a big difference though but simplicity and weight and just ease of use, I decided no slides in this next one. I think if you want a bed on Born Free you need to step up to 26 foot or they did makk 22 footer with two twin beds/sofas that had a medical bed head lifting ability to raise up the head of the bed 18 inches. I had one and it was interesting but it was a wet bath and we found we loved the Born Free so much we wanted to go laces in it more and more so we upgraded to 24 foot.

[John_S_]

I had a 07 24 foot rear Bath Born Free and that thing was bulletproof. One repair to the house in 9 years of ownership and two repairs to the engine. It was the coils and plugs and they were expensive. But they were a maaintanence iitem too. So no real problems in 9 years. Had a built for two 22 foot befor that but too small. I just sold my aforetravel and born free to buy a new road y'all Splendor on the dodge 5500 chassis.

[Pops]

We had a 2007 Aspect 26A from 2010 to 2016, Loved It. Some folks don't like the semi-round booth instead of a dinette, but it served us perfect. It made into a 80x50(?)bed which was bigger than the queen-short bed. It drove great, without any up grades, had space behind the driver's seat for tilt or small storage. Bought with 7,000 miles on it, sold with 39,000 miles on it. In 30,000 miles, we never had a problem without reservations staying at Nat Pk, St Pk, commercial sites, anywhere. The 26A I could average 10+ mpg on flat land at 55-60, on my 2012 28T can only get 9+mpg. 26A is 27' long, 1 slide, 28T is almost 30' long, 2 slides. (think that is the difference in mpg). Still glad we upgraded to the 28T.
Best advice, Look for the floor plan that you like first, then the others to sway your decision.

[ron_dittmer]

Be watchful of a booth dinette inside a slide-out. I don't know about the Aspect, but many manufacturers push the booths closer together to fit them inside a slide-out. The end result is a smaller table and not enough leg room. A no-slide booth dinette will typically have more wall space to work with to spread the booths farther apart. Not only a bigger table and more leg room, but also a longer bed when converted so. For reference, our dinette converted into a bed measures 5'-11" long.

As far as over-all length increase to 26'-7", I don't see it being a big deal. The issue is parking the rig at home of which you say you can accommodate. The wheel base to rear over-hang ratio might be an issue with handling like we had with our PC until I had some suspension upgrades done to make it all better.

BTW, the coffee maker in the cabinet door was a factory feature of the era. It had its challenge making coffee and getting the coffee out of it. Like most PC owners who had it, we eventually removed it to utilize the space inside that cabinet better, and going with a smaller sized conventional coffee maker to place on the counter.

[pnichols]

John,

Here's the 2007 Aspect brochure: https://winnebagoind.com/resources/brochure/2007/07-Aspect-bro.pdf

Note that it's overhead cab area is not the usual Class C motorhome full size bed/storage area, but the Class B+ motorhome style of entertainment overhead cab area.

That type of overhead cab area makes for a more streamlined look and may provide a slightly improved gas mileage. However, I actually sleep up in our Winnebago Itasca's larger Class C style of overhead cab area in it's full size queen bed. Since this Class C style of overhead cab area runs the full width of the motorhome ... it's about a foot wider (6 inches at the foot and 6 inches at the head) than what is needed for the length of the queen bed. I store two foldup outside chairs, a foldup outside table, and many other items in these foot/head areas while at the same time sleeping in the queen bed up there. The queen bed portion of the area up there is in two lengthwise halves so that you just push one half up unto the other half when traveling so as to provide headroom above the driver and passenger. This allows the driver and passenger to be able to stand up when getting out-of/into the front cab seats withouut having to bend over. So what you get is another bed and more storage - but with entertainment equipment being mounted and stored some other place in the coach.

Note also that the 2007 Aspect 26A has slides. Some folks do not want slides in their ClassB+/C motorhomes for several reasons. But in the case of the Aspect 26A slide motorhome you get a narrower motorhome (95 inches) when traveling, but of course additional room when camped with the slides out. I wouldn't recommend buying any slide motorhome where: A) You couldn't use crucial conveniences in the coach with the slides in and, B) You couldn't tilt back the driver's seat and passenger's seat with the slides in.

[Travelin2]

ron.dittmer wrote:

Travelin2 wrote:
Three things carry a lot of weight in our decision. First we would like to stay 25 ft or less. Have a dedicated bed and a booth dinette. The search continues.

You sound like us 10 years ago. To avoid a very long winded list of reasons, I will just say that our PC-2350 fit the bill quite well. Click on my signature below to see many pictures of it. It was important to us to be under 25 feet long and 10 foot tall to fit in our garage, sleep together on a main floor bed for two, a good dinette, and all the "practical use" amenities of the big class Cs. Not novelty features like a fridge that won't hold much of anything, a sink you can't do dishes in, run out of water too quickly, take a shower with a toilet in between your legs, things like that.

May I suggest considering shopping the internet more intensely with the notion of flying out to buy what you want at the right price.

Ron, I looked through your picture album and you are right, that is just what we are looking for. It's a beautiful rig. Quite crafty the way you mounted the coffee maker out of the way. I am going to take your advice and widen our search area.

I widened an internet search to 300 miles and found a very nice rig similar to your layout. It is a Winnebago Aspect 26A with full body paint and Alcoa aluminum wheels. Beautiful rig. It's a 2007 for $35K. What's you thoughts on that model and the value? It's a foot longer than we intended but we have a 50ft boat shed so not a problem at home. Would the extra 3ft have seriously affected your use while on the road?

[Travelin2]

j-d wrote:
The Diesel added a lot to the original cost. It may actually deduct from the resale, since 6.0 was problematic. But, in addition to whatever the mechanics might be, and maybe the noise, two factors we haven't discussed, remain:

1. It was de-tuned in the E-Series, so you don't get the high performance the pickup is known for

2. It takes the Front Axle right to rated capacity, limiting weight carrying and weight distribution opportunities.

Now for what I really wanted to say in this reply, and I'll SHOUT:

YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THE FEATURES YOU WANT, LIKE THAT BED. DON'T COMPROMISE AND GET SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T MEET YOUR NEED JUST BECAUSE IT'S CLOSE BY OR AVAILABLE NOW.

Thanks for "shouting" that out to us. It's odd that you say that because last night my wife and I found some good deals on rigs on the internet that did not have those main features and we found ourselves saying "well we could live with that". Then this morning I see your post. Thanks for bringing us back into focus.

[ron_dittmer]

Travelin2 wrote:
Three things carry a lot of weight in our decision. First we would like to stay 25 ft or less. Have a dedicated bed and a booth dinette. The search continues.

You sound like us 10 years ago. To avoid a very long winded list of reasons, I will just say that our PC-2350 fit the bill quite well. Click on my signature below to see many pictures of it. It was important to us to be under 25 feet long and 10 foot tall to fit in our garage, sleep together on a main floor bed for two, a good dinette, and all the "practical use" amenities of the big class Cs. Not novelty features like a fridge that won't hold much of anything, a sink you can't do dishes in, run out of water too quickly, take a shower with a toilet in between your legs, things like that.

May I suggest considering shopping the internet more intensely with the notion of flying out to buy what you want at the right price.

[Snowman9000]

I wouldn't drop the Phoenix Cruiser just because they no longer have that floorplan. If you like it, that's what counts.

[pnichols]

John (the OP),

You might also want to consider the 24V 2005 version of the Itasca we have on the optional E450 V10 chassis - it's been a great Class C for us since we bought it new. Note such things as tank sizes, interior wall construction, interior/exterior storage, and roof construction. The last year that Winnebago offered this same model with the same set of features was 2007. Don't look at this model earlier than 2005 or you'll not get Ford's great 5-speed (6 ratios internally) computer controlled transmission in it:

https://winnebagoind.com/resources/brochure/2005/05-Spirit-bro.pdf

[Bumpyroad]

as I remember there were several born free models that were short and had twin couch/beds.
bumpy