FORD 460 Overheating Mystery

[goprolocal]

1997 Fleetwood Southwind 35P ~Ford 460 engine.

I noticed the rig running a bit warm when we first got it 5 years ago. It had 23K miles on it then. It seemed each trip it would run a little more on the hot side of the dash gauge during long interstate trips. During stop and go around town, everything seems just fine, even when it's 110 outside.

Then we started flat-towing a Jeep Wrangler TJ. I expected the temps to increase but I noticed that on inclines, the dash gauge would nearly peg on hot. I could tell the rig was hot.. This would only happen on highway trips...worse on inclines.

One time after traveling for 2.5 hours at 60-65mph, we got off the highway and when we pulled into the gas station, the engine seemed to be vapor-locking..like it was starving for fuel. After 2 hours of letting it cool off, I was able to feather the throttle enough to keep it running to get it home. It doesn't do this vapor-locking thing unless we run long distances at a time, and not every time. It has only done it once before after a 40 minute incline. I actually unscrewed the gas cap thinking that maybe rapid fuel consumption from the tank cause some vacuum or fuel flow resistance..or ?

I then had the radiator, water pump, and thermostat replaced. No difference. I replace the fuel pump, changed the fuel filter, had the carburetor adjusted..no difference.

Thinking that the dash gauge could be off, I replaced the temperature sending unit and gauge with a number dial. The rig runs down the highway at 245 degrees if I'm not towing. If I'm towing, 245 to 258 degrees uphill.

I can hear the clutch fan kick in at 230 to 240 degrees or so...maybe sooner ..and it does cool it down a few degrees so I know it's working.

Are these temps bad? It seems high to me but maybe this is perfectly normal? I don't think it is. The rig runs perfectly..smooth as can be.

The problem seems like it has gotten progressively worse. Our last trip up to the mountains towing, it got to 258 degrees ...the highest I've seen it yet.

There are only 2 things that I can think of that could cause this.

1. Blown head gasket. This makes sense because the problem seems to happen under load. Perhaps there is a leak that's pushing hot exhaust gasses into the coolant? When things are under load, they heat up, causing expansion, and making the leak worse?

If this were true, I would expect to see some foam in the engine oil...but I don't.

2. Transmission issue. I believe the tranny is cooled by the same engine coolant. It shifts perfect, does not slip at all. I have no idea how to test to see if this is the cause of the overheating issue...any suggestions here would be appreciated.

Solutions.
1. Sell it.
2. Take it to a head shop and have the head gaskets replaced.
3. Put STEEL SEAL Head Gasket Sealer in it and cross my fingers. (Has anyone tried this?)
4. Pretend that these temperatures aren't anything to worry about until my rig blows up.
5. ??? Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

[Rocket9k]

goprolocal wrote:
Hi,
The fan cluth was just replaced a couple weeks ago. I can hear it roaring when it kicks on and it's oriented properly (sucking air from the front of the radiator to the back). And I do see it cool things off temporarily a few degrees when I hear it come on. Over time it heats up though...despite the fan it seems.

When the fan comes on, what temperature on your gauge do you see it come on? I'm assuming you have the ford NORMAL gauge and an aftermarket numerical gauge. Do you hear it kicking on and off briefly at traffic lights/stops?

[time2roll]

I want to know what is behind the water pump.

[goprolocal]

Hi,
The fan cluth was just replaced a couple weeks ago. I can hear it roaring when it kicks on and it's oriented properly (sucking air from the front of the radiator to the back). And I do see it cool things off temporarily a few degrees when I hear it come on. Over time it heats up though...despite the fan it seems.

[Rocket9k]

goprolocal wrote:

Rocket9k wrote:

goprolocal wrote:
All the rubber in the engine compartment is intact and directing air through the radiator directly.

Here again is a list of items that have been replaced to diagnose this hot issue.

SYMPTOM:
Rig: 1996-1997 Fleetwood Southwind 35P
Ford 460 engine
I bought it from auction at 23K miles about 5 years ago. I noticed right away that it ran on the hotter side of normal when traveling down the highway at speed over time. This seems to have progressively gotten to be worse over the last 10K miles (rig now has 33K miles on it).

Now, when driving down the freeway with the overdrive off to simulate towing rpm, after about 10-15 minutes at 65mph, the temperature suddenly jumps from 210 to 255 degrees....like within 15 seconds. It will then stay at 255 until we either slow down to city street speeds. If I turn the overdrive on, it will cool to 245 degrees or so.

Driving around town, the rig runs at 210 no problem...even with it being 115 degrees outside here in Arizona. But get on the highway for a bit and she gets hot. The rig has never boiled completely over. It runs excellent, no transmission slipping, engine missing, hard starting, nothing...runs great!

Here is what we've done and tried:

Check for exhaust gases in coolant (nope, not a blown head gasket)
Checked clutch fan blades to be sure they are oriented properly (sucking air from the front to back of the radiator)
Flush block and radiator (some **** came out)
Vacuum filled block and radiator (in case some air pocket?)
Replaced clutch fan (it's oriented correctly and working..I can hear it come on)
Replaced radiator (yes, it's the proper radiator)
Replaced thermostat (3x)
Replaced fuel filter and fuel pump (in case it was running lean)
Replaced spark plugs and wires
Replaced oil and tranny fluid (very small amount of metal shavings in tranny fluid)
Replaced water pump
Replaced radiator hoses (in case it was kinking at high rpm)

It was suggested that possible hot O2 sensors may be causing the rig to run lean under load. Anyone have any insight into this possibility. It has done something like a vapor lock when it was super hot after we pulled off the highway into a gas station...the rig sputtered and died at the pump. I could hear the fuel boiling so I'm pretty sure that was why. After letting it cool for 3 hours, it ran fine again. Just in case, I also opened the fuel cap to rule out a vacuum holding fuel back.

At this point, I don't even know what else to replace or try...maybe an auxiliary electric fan? The other test I think we need to try is a flow test to see that water is circulating properly.

It remains a mystery!
Thank you to everyone for your ideas and input. I don't want to sell this rig but it's looking like that may be the final answer...either that or drive it until it's dead.

Anyone have any input on the long term damage of running it at 255 degrees for 4-6 hour legs?

Goprolocal, you're in too deep to give up on it now. Sounds like a great unit otherwise. You are in Arizona correct? I have a 1997 Winnebago Adventurer 34RQ that I just went through this with. A 460 is a hot runner, but running any V8 big block at a sustained 255 degrees is never ideal and will shorten engine/trans life. I have a few questions:

-What brand radiator was used? The factory one has been discontinued for sometime, and there are more than a few incorrect radiators advertised as correct radiators.
-Do you have a trans temp gauge? If so, what does it read?
-What brand fan clutch was used (model number if possible?)

If your engine is nearing 230F and the fan clutch is not fully engaged, it is not operating properly. The fan (once running) should be able to pull engine temp down fairly quickly (within 60 seconds). The fans on these chassis are quite aggressive, and when they are singing, capable of cooling the rig down quite well. As with radiators for this chassis, there are more wrong fan clutches than right ones.

If you are not boiling over running it hard in the desert at 110+ degrees you are doing pretty good, just not quite good enough.

I just called the shop that replaced the radiator a few years ago...no answer but I'm hoping they have the info. I can tell you that it was getting hot before the radiator was replaced and there was no change then after the radiator, water pump and thermostat were all replaced at the same time. The hot issue just seems to have progressively gotten worse over time.

I'm going to call the shop and see what fan they put on it...they did make sure the blades were correctly oriented. I'm also going to suggest a coolant flow test of some sort. I don't have a trans temp gouge on the rig. I also plan to completely seal off the front of the rig somehow so that every molecule of air is forced to go through the radiator. We have a trip coming up in a few weeks...Gilbert, Az. to San Diego, Ca. Hopefully it will be a cooler run. :h

I am suspicious of you radiator/fan clutch setup. Like it was mentioned before, Radiators for this chassis are not created equal. My money is on the fan clutch. If you are reaching 230f and the fan is not roaring, that's a problem. You can have the healthiest cooling system ever and without a properly functioning fan, it will still run hot/overheat. Fin count in the radiator can affect fan clutch operation as well as was mentioned previously.

[goprolocal]

Rocket9k wrote:

goprolocal wrote:
All the rubber in the engine compartment is intact and directing air through the radiator directly.

Here again is a list of items that have been replaced to diagnose this hot issue.

SYMPTOM:
Rig: 1996-1997 Fleetwood Southwind 35P
Ford 460 engine
I bought it from auction at 23K miles about 5 years ago. I noticed right away that it ran on the hotter side of normal when traveling down the highway at speed over time. This seems to have progressively gotten to be worse over the last 10K miles (rig now has 33K miles on it).

Now, when driving down the freeway with the overdrive off to simulate towing rpm, after about 10-15 minutes at 65mph, the temperature suddenly jumps from 210 to 255 degrees....like within 15 seconds. It will then stay at 255 until we either slow down to city street speeds. If I turn the overdrive on, it will cool to 245 degrees or so.

Driving around town, the rig runs at 210 no problem...even with it being 115 degrees outside here in Arizona. But get on the highway for a bit and she gets hot. The rig has never boiled completely over. It runs excellent, no transmission slipping, engine missing, hard starting, nothing...runs great!

Here is what we've done and tried:

Check for exhaust gases in coolant (nope, not a blown head gasket)
Checked clutch fan blades to be sure they are oriented properly (sucking air from the front to back of the radiator)
Flush block and radiator (some **** came out)
Vacuum filled block and radiator (in case some air pocket?)
Replaced clutch fan (it's oriented correctly and working..I can hear it come on)
Replaced radiator (yes, it's the proper radiator)
Replaced thermostat (3x)
Replaced fuel filter and fuel pump (in case it was running lean)
Replaced spark plugs and wires
Replaced oil and tranny fluid (very small amount of metal shavings in tranny fluid)
Replaced water pump
Replaced radiator hoses (in case it was kinking at high rpm)

It was suggested that possible hot O2 sensors may be causing the rig to run lean under load. Anyone have any insight into this possibility. It has done something like a vapor lock when it was super hot after we pulled off the highway into a gas station...the rig sputtered and died at the pump. I could hear the fuel boiling so I'm pretty sure that was why. After letting it cool for 3 hours, it ran fine again. Just in case, I also opened the fuel cap to rule out a vacuum holding fuel back.

At this point, I don't even know what else to replace or try...maybe an auxiliary electric fan? The other test I think we need to try is a flow test to see that water is circulating properly.

It remains a mystery!
Thank you to everyone for your ideas and input. I don't want to sell this rig but it's looking like that may be the final answer...either that or drive it until it's dead.

Anyone have any input on the long term damage of running it at 255 degrees for 4-6 hour legs?

Goprolocal, you're in too deep to give up on it now. Sounds like a great unit otherwise. You are in Arizona correct? I have a 1997 Winnebago Adventurer 34RQ that I just went through this with. A 460 is a hot runner, but running any V8 big block at a sustained 255 degrees is never ideal and will shorten engine/trans life. I have a few questions:

-What brand radiator was used? The factory one has been discontinued for sometime, and there are more than a few incorrect radiators advertised as correct radiators.
-Do you have a trans temp gauge? If so, what does it read?
-What brand fan clutch was used (model number if possible?)

If your engine is nearing 230F and the fan clutch is not fully engaged, it is not operating properly. The fan (once running) should be able to pull engine temp down fairly quickly (within 60 seconds). The fans on these chassis are quite aggressive, and when they are singing, capable of cooling the rig down quite well. As with radiators for this chassis, there are more wrong fan clutches than right ones.

If you are not boiling over running it hard in the desert at 110+ degrees you are doing pretty good, just not quite good enough.

I just called the shop that replaced the radiator a few years ago...no answer but I'm hoping they have the info. I can tell you that it was getting hot before the radiator was replaced and there was no change then after the radiator, water pump and thermostat were all replaced at the same time. The hot issue just seems to have progressively gotten worse over time.

I'm going to call the shop and see what fan they put on it...they did make sure the blades were correctly oriented. I'm also going to suggest a coolant flow test of some sort. I don't have a trans temp gouge on the rig. I also plan to completely seal off the front of the rig somehow so that every molecule of air is forced to go through the radiator. We have a trip coming up in a few weeks...Gilbert, Az. to San Diego, Ca. Hopefully it will be a cooler run. :h

[Rocket9k]

goprolocal wrote:
All the rubber in the engine compartment is intact and directing air through the radiator directly.

Here again is a list of items that have been replaced to diagnose this hot issue.

SYMPTOM:
Rig: 1996-1997 Fleetwood Southwind 35P
Ford 460 engine
I bought it from auction at 23K miles about 5 years ago. I noticed right away that it ran on the hotter side of normal when traveling down the highway at speed over time. This seems to have progressively gotten to be worse over the last 10K miles (rig now has 33K miles on it).

Now, when driving down the freeway with the overdrive off to simulate towing rpm, after about 10-15 minutes at 65mph, the temperature suddenly jumps from 210 to 255 degrees....like within 15 seconds. It will then stay at 255 until we either slow down to city street speeds. If I turn the overdrive on, it will cool to 245 degrees or so.

Driving around town, the rig runs at 210 no problem...even with it being 115 degrees outside here in Arizona. But get on the highway for a bit and she gets hot. The rig has never boiled completely over. It runs excellent, no transmission slipping, engine missing, hard starting, nothing...runs great!

Here is what we've done and tried:

Check for exhaust gases in coolant (nope, not a blown head gasket)
Checked clutch fan blades to be sure they are oriented properly (sucking air from the front to back of the radiator)
Flush block and radiator (some **** came out)
Vacuum filled block and radiator (in case some air pocket?)
Replaced clutch fan (it's oriented correctly and working..I can hear it come on)
Replaced radiator (yes, it's the proper radiator)
Replaced thermostat (3x)
Replaced fuel filter and fuel pump (in case it was running lean)
Replaced spark plugs and wires
Replaced oil and tranny fluid (very small amount of metal shavings in tranny fluid)
Replaced water pump
Replaced radiator hoses (in case it was kinking at high rpm)

It was suggested that possible hot O2 sensors may be causing the rig to run lean under load. Anyone have any insight into this possibility. It has done something like a vapor lock when it was super hot after we pulled off the highway into a gas station...the rig sputtered and died at the pump. I could hear the fuel boiling so I'm pretty sure that was why. After letting it cool for 3 hours, it ran fine again. Just in case, I also opened the fuel cap to rule out a vacuum holding fuel back.

At this point, I don't even know what else to replace or try...maybe an auxiliary electric fan? The other test I think we need to try is a flow test to see that water is circulating properly.

It remains a mystery!
Thank you to everyone for your ideas and input. I don't want to sell this rig but it's looking like that may be the final answer...either that or drive it until it's dead.

Anyone have any input on the long term damage of running it at 255 degrees for 4-6 hour legs?

Goprolocal, you're in too deep to give up on it now. Sounds like a great unit otherwise. You are in Arizona correct? I have a 1997 Winnebago Adventurer 34RQ that I just went through this with. A 460 is a hot runner, but running any V8 big block at a sustained 255 degrees is never ideal and will shorten engine/trans life. I have a few questions:

-What brand radiator was used? The factory one has been discontinued for sometime, and there are more than a few incorrect radiators advertised as correct radiators.
-Do you have a trans temp gauge? If so, what does it read?
-What brand fan clutch was used (model number if possible?)

If your engine is nearing 230F and the fan clutch is not fully engaged, it is not operating properly. The fan (once running) should be able to pull engine temp down fairly quickly (within 60 seconds). The fans on these chassis are quite aggressive, and when they are singing, capable of cooling the rig down quite well. As with radiators for this chassis, there are more wrong fan clutches than right ones.

If you are not boiling over running it hard in the desert at 110+ degrees you are doing pretty good, just not quite good enough.

[4x4van]

crawford wrote:
maybe wrong but I believe clutch fans after about 50 mph aren't needed and disengage

Not necessarily. My Workhorse fan clutch kicks in if temps gets to 208 regardless of vehicle speed; it roars when on so there is no doubt, and it immediately drops my temps back to 204 where it shuts back off. Although my last RV was the Ford 460 (carb), and I don't remember the fan clutch making as much of a roar as this GM motor does.

[Stim]

Just another wild guess, partially stopped up muffler. ???

[time2roll]

"After six months we finally found out that some idiot had replaced the water pump and threw the steel plate that went between the water pump and the engine block away. The pump could not circulate the water properly. Once replaced the truck runs...and cools... like a top, but it's still a 460. You don't pass many gas stations with this baby!"

https://www.460ford.com/threads/460-overheating-solution-found.154369/

https://www.460ford.com/threads/water-pump-backing-plate.117212/

Possible this was done by prior owner's shop. Verify with your shop if the plate was actually removed and replaced. Apparently not all replacement pumps come with a new plate and apparently some technicians don't think it is needed unless supplied.

This apparently reduces coolant flow. So again back to the flow test.

[John_Joey]

That ford 460 is a flat tappet engine. I'm guessing you could be using the wrong oil in it. What you want is oil with Zinc. I use to run 15w40 Rotella.

Do a Google search on zinc in oil. The new oils don't use it anymore but that old motor requires it. Guessing at high rpms you're creating more friction = heat.

[BrianinMichigan]

another thing I did with my P-30 chassis was I blocked up any place that air could escape once it got past the front grill. This was so any air that came through the grill had to push through the radiator. I got a 15-20 degree drop in temperature but still ran hot till I got the radiator re cored. What I did was used some 1/4" hardware cloth and stapled it in. Then I used spray foam on the screen. Its been like that for at least a dozen plus years.

[BrianinMichigan]

How about the sending unit itself? Kind of odd that the temp can jump that quick.

[goprolocal]

All the rubber in the engine compartment is intact and directing air through the radiator directly.

Here again is a list of items that have been replaced to diagnose this hot issue.

SYMPTOM:
Rig: 1996-1997 Fleetwood Southwind 35P
Ford 460 engine
I bought it from auction at 23K miles about 5 years ago. I noticed right away that it ran on the hotter side of normal when traveling down the highway at speed over time. This seems to have progressively gotten to be worse over the last 10K miles (rig now has 33K miles on it).

Now, when driving down the freeway with the overdrive off to simulate towing rpm, after about 10-15 minutes at 65mph, the temperature suddenly jumps from 210 to 255 degrees....like within 15 seconds. It will then stay at 255 until we either slow down to city street speeds. If I turn the overdrive on, it will cool to 245 degrees or so.

Driving around town, the rig runs at 210 no problem...even with it being 115 degrees outside here in Arizona. But get on the highway for a bit and she gets hot. The rig has never boiled completely over. It runs excellent, no transmission slipping, engine missing, hard starting, nothing...runs great!

Here is what we've done and tried:

Check for exhaust gases in coolant (nope, not a blown head gasket)
Checked clutch fan blades to be sure they are oriented properly (sucking air from the front to back of the radiator)
Flush block and radiator (some **** came out)
Vacuum filled block and radiator (in case some air pocket?)
Replaced clutch fan (it's oriented correctly and working..I can hear it come on)
Replaced radiator (yes, it's the proper radiator)
Replaced thermostat (3x)
Replaced fuel filter and fuel pump (in case it was running lean)
Replaced spark plugs and wires
Replaced oil and tranny fluid (very small amount of metal shavings in tranny fluid)
Replaced water pump
Replaced radiator hoses (in case it was kinking at high rpm)

It was suggested that possible hot O2 sensors may be causing the rig to run lean under load. Anyone have any insight into this possibility. It has done something like a vapor lock when it was super hot after we pulled off the highway into a gas station...the rig sputtered and died at the pump. I could hear the fuel boiling so I'm pretty sure that was why. After letting it cool for 3 hours, it ran fine again. Just in case, I also opened the fuel cap to rule out a vacuum holding fuel back.

At this point, I don't even know what else to replace or try...maybe an auxiliary electric fan? The other test I think we need to try is a flow test to see that water is circulating properly.

It remains a mystery!
Thank you to everyone for your ideas and input. I don't want to sell this rig but it's looking like that may be the final answer...either that or drive it until it's dead.

Anyone have any input on the long term damage of running it at 255 degrees for 4-6 hour legs?

[goprolocal]

It's further back in the post but the temperature sending unit AND gauge have both been replaced...twice 😞

[MrWizard]

Are the rubber shrouds/air dams that belong around the the top and sides of the radiator still in place and in good shape
These must be there, they seal the front of the RV and force the air to go thru the radiator and not around or under/over radiator and engine
Your comment about removing the engine cover/doghouse , caused me to think you increased air flow thru the cooling system by allowing it into the RV