Wrong Pump in AZ

[fischer]

Just read about ging to the wrong pump in Arizona at truck stops. If you have 3 axels or over 26,000 lbs rig and your diesel. Fine is 1000 dollars if you use the car pumps.
Did you big guys already know this

[jlabr2]

Let me ask this. On the pump sticker it says the "Declared Weight". I looked at the definition and it says that this is the weight that is posted on your registration when you license the vehicle. Even though my coach's GVW is over 26k my registration declared weight is zero. Does this mean anything?

[Trumpet_Player]

winepress wrote:

Rollnhome wrote:
Arizona DOT definition of Recreational Vehicle taken from:

Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 28 Transportation - Section 28-3102

"Recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

Here is the list of "use vehicles"

A "use class motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses use fuel on a highway in this state and that is a road tractor, truck tractor, truck or passenger carrying vehicle having a declared gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds or having more than two axles.

A passenger carrying vehicle is defined by USDOT as: simplified... A bus or motorcoach ( tour bus) designed to carry 15 or more passengers.

RVs are not on the list therefore no need to exempt.
The listed exemptions are exemptions to vehicle types listed as "use class motor vehicle.

Therefore RVs pay 18¢ fuel tax.

Seems like this discussion is over if the definition of a "passenger carrying vehicle" is correct as stated above.

Please note, the WRITTEN explanation from the officials at the ADOT Fuel Tax Unit makes no mention of this statute having anything to do with compliance with the fuel tax law. All we have here is a number of folks trying to mix apples and oranges. Specifically, ARS 28-3102 is dealing with driver license requirements. The definition used here is the one used in the statute to exempt RVs from CDL license requirements. Clearly Arizona knows how to exempt RVs as they have with this statute, but notice, they DO NOT exempt RVs in the exempt list of ARS 28-5432.C that controls the fuel tax issue.

Also I find it humorous that I believe that the same guy trying to cite this information is the guy that yesterday stated that in Arizona it required a special license to operate a motorhome in excess of 26,000 lbs. He was wrong there also.

[winepress]

Rollnhome wrote:
Arizona DOT definition of Recreational Vehicle taken from:

Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 28 Transportation - Section 28-3102

"Recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

Here is the list of "use vehicles"

A "use class motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses use fuel on a highway in this state and that is a road tractor, truck tractor, truck or passenger carrying vehicle having a declared gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds or having more than two axles.

A passenger carrying vehicle is defined by USDOT as: simplified... A bus or motorcoach ( tour bus) designed to carry 15 or more passengers.

RVs are not on the list therefore no need to exempt.
The listed exemptions are exemptions to vehicle types listed as "use class motor vehicle.

Therefore RVs pay 18¢ fuel tax.

Seems like this discussion is over if the definition of a "passenger carrying vehicle" is correct as stated above.

[Trumpet_Player]

msmith1199 wrote:

lbligh wrote:

msmith1199 wrote:

Rollnhome wrote:
How can you exempt something from a list that is not included in the list? That is my point.

That's why I'm trying to tell him but he insists on going over and over with the same rant. Nobody is disagreeing that motorhomes are not specifically excluded. We are saying the statute appears to never include them to begin with. I tried pointing out to this guy that Diesel powered VW's are excluded either, but that is because they aren't included to begin with. He couldn't even understand that.

Go read the label. The labels SPECIFICALLY identify the vehicles that fuel from the labeled pump can be dispensed into. It specifically states the following on the higher tax rate fuel:

The Arizona Use Fuel tax rate per gallon at this pump is shown above.
Fuel purchased from this pump is for use in vehicles with more than
2 axles or a declared Gross Vehicle Weight greater than 26,000 lbs.
•Vehicles not meeting the above description -or-
•Vehicles exempt under ARS 28-5432 (school buses, government and non-profit)
are taxed at a lower rate. Please see the attendant for an $.08 cent per gallon rebate.

The consumer warning label on the lower tax rate fuel dispenser states the the fuel dispensed from the pump must be used in a vehicle with NO MORE THAN TWO AXLES AND HAVE A GVW LESS THAN 26,000.

What can you possibly not understand? Maybe you need a refresher course in reading? I would actually pay to watch you try your so-called theories on for size with an ADOT officer. Maybe you will let us all know when you next plan to purchase fuel in AZ and I will personally arrange to have an ADOT officer there if you would like.

Why don't you try reading the actual law and not the label. You are really making yourself look foolish here.

I have and know exactly what it says. Seems as if you are not able to comprehend the note from ADOT? All roads lead back to that pesky ARS 28-5432 you like so much. Sorry, those are just the simple facts.

[Trumpet_Player]

msmith1199 wrote:
Here's an interesting thread on this very subject from 2012:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25936142.cfm

People on this thread are saying RV's are exempt, yet nobody offers legal authority for why they say they are exempt. But what I found the most entertaining was the second to the last post in the thread posted by "lbligh" and states the following:

"NOT true. The AZ fuel tax being discussed applies only to commercial vehicles. RVs are exempt. If you fill at a truck facility you simply go inside and advise them that you are a non-commercial vehicle and they will deduct/refund the $0.08 per gallon tax."

Indeed, I did say that. However, I contacted ADOT when their pump label seemed to contradict what had been communicated to me by a truck stop manager and was informed that the law did apply to RVs and that they were not exempt and was referred to that pesky statute you like so much ARS 28-5432. See, some of us can learn, some others seem not to be able to.

[Executive45]

BobGed wrote:
/snip/Things may have changed but about seven years agoI fueled at the truck pumps at Love's in Yuma. When I went inside to pay the cashier asked if I was the one driving the motor home. I told her yes, and she said she needed to calculate a tax credit off of my charges. When I asked her why, she told me because I was not a commercial vehicle I didn't have to pay the higher tax rate (I don't remember any of the numbers), but I did pay a reduce bill.

Earlier this year I fueled at the PFJ in Kingman in the RV lane (so I could get my CC 5% rebate). While I will admit I didn't read any of the small print posted on the pump (I never do), one would think if I shouldn't have used that pump because of my weight, that PFJ would have a large sign posted informing drivers of the axle and/or weight restriction.

It would seem to me if coaches weighing >26,000 lbs were not legally supposed to be fueling in the RV lanes, then the AZDOT enforcement officials would be on site making a ton of money for the state.

Bob, that was exactly the point I made on page one of this debacle. The supervisor I talked to in the fuel tax division indicated that AZ was stepping up enforcement in this area. Since I have three axles, I will continue to pay the 26 cents when I refuel in Arizona. It's much cheaper than paying a $1,000 fine and/or sitting in court all day.

That said, I've sent an email to Mark Zimmerman, Senior Division Administrator for the fuel tax investigation arm of the AZDOT asking him to clarify this issue. According to his office his response time is about three weeks. Until I hear from someone in authority, in writing, I'll continue to pay the extra $8 to fill up.....Dennis

[msmith1199]

mpierce wrote:
Seems like the best would be if AZ would come out and say, one way or the other, if RV's are exempt or not.

Of course, that would require a gov't employee to actually make a decision, and that is asking a LOT!

It will probably stay muddled, until either the legislature steps in, or someone who gets fined takes them to court, and a judge decides what the law actually means. As we have discovered here, it can really be taken two ways. One part conflicts with the other.

You're right and it's not that complex for them to fix this. The head of whichever agency is actually in charge of enforcing this law can simply put out a directive in writing saying whether privately owned motorhomes are included or not. That is how most issues like this are solved.

[mpierce]

Seems like the best would be if AZ would come out and say, one way or the other, if RV's are exempt or not.

Of course, that would require a gov't employee to actually make a decision, and that is asking a LOT!

It will probably stay muddled, until either the legislature steps in, or someone who gets fined takes them to court, and a judge decides what the law actually means. As we have discovered here, it can really be taken two ways. One part conflicts with the other.

[BobGed]

I have read this entire thread and the links provided, and I'm not here to state a position or take sides. However, I would like to make a couple of personal observations that may or may not have anything to do with the actual legalities of this issue. First of all my previous and current coaches were/are two axle, but both well over 26,000 lbs.

Things may have changed but about seven years ago I fueled at the truck pumps at Love's in Yuma. When I went inside to pay the cashier asked if I was the one driving the motor home. I told her yes, and she said she needed to calculate a tax credit off of my charges. When I asked her why, she told me because I was not a commercial vehicle I didn't have to pay the higher tax rate (I don't remember any of the numbers), but I did pay a reduce bill.

Earlier this year I fueled at the PFJ in Kingman in the RV lane (so I could get my CC 5% rebate). While I will admit I didn't read any of the small print posted on the pump (I never do), one would think if I shouldn't have used that pump because of my weight, that PFJ would have a large sign posted informing drivers of the axle and/or weight restriction.

It would seem to me if coaches weighing >26,000 lbs were not legally supposed to be fueling in the RV lanes, then the AZDOT enforcement officials would be on site making a ton of money for the state.

[msmith1199]

Here is something I found posted on another RV forum from 2012. Obviously this debate and the fuzzy answers from government officials in Arizona has been going on for a while:

"I called the State of AZ fuel information number and asked if motorhomes were exempt from paying the truck rate despite their weight or number of axles.
I got an honest answer. This is a grey area! A motorhome with two axles that is registered is Arizona is clearly exempt BECAUSE their Arizona registration says they have ZERO weight. I told her my SD registration shows over 34,000lbs. She said, as I said before this is a grey area, but in reality nobody is going to ask. Next I asked about 3 axles. Same answer - this is a grey area, but for now they are not enforcing the truck rate against motorhomes.
She confirmed that the stations that gave me a credit for the 8cents were correct and that I cold ask for the credit at any station. The law says they have to give you the credit if they don't have any pumps with the auto tax rate, but doesn't seem to make it mandatory if they have both auto and truck pumps.
So as of yesterday it was OK to fuel large rigs at the auto pumps, but who knows when a tax starved state will change their minds."

[msmith1199]

Here's an interesting thread on this very subject from 2012:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25936142.cfm

People on this thread are saying RV's are exempt, yet nobody offers legal authority for why they say they are exempt. But what I found the most entertaining was the second to the last post in the thread posted by "lbligh" and states the following:

"NOT true. The AZ fuel tax being discussed applies only to commercial vehicles. RVs are exempt. If you fill at a truck facility you simply go inside and advise them that you are a non-commercial vehicle and they will deduct/refund the $0.08 per gallon tax."

[Rollnhome]

I said last post, but it turn out to be next to last post..... but did you read this note on your pamphlet that references your pump label.

"Note: This information is provided to inform the reader of general requirements in the areas addressed. It is not intended to be referenced as legal authority for taking any action or position, nor is it intended to set forth the legal position of the State of Arizona in specific cases, which must be considered individually based on all facts and circumstances. Readers should thoroughly review all applicable statutes, and consult counsel as appropriate, before taking any action or position.

[msmith1199]

lbligh wrote:

msmith1199 wrote:

Rollnhome wrote:
How can you exempt something from a list that is not included in the list? That is my point.

That's why I'm trying to tell him but he insists on going over and over with the same rant. Nobody is disagreeing that motorhomes are not specifically excluded. We are saying the statute appears to never include them to begin with. I tried pointing out to this guy that Diesel powered VW's are excluded either, but that is because they aren't included to begin with. He couldn't even understand that.

Go read the label. The labels SPECIFICALLY identify the vehicles that fuel from the labeled pump can be dispensed into. It specifically states the following on the higher tax rate fuel:

The Arizona Use Fuel tax rate per gallon at this pump is shown above.
Fuel purchased from this pump is for use in vehicles with more than
2 axles or a declared Gross Vehicle Weight greater than 26,000 lbs.
•Vehicles not meeting the above description -or-
•Vehicles exempt under ARS 28-5432 (school buses, government and non-profit)
are taxed at a lower rate. Please see the attendant for an $.08 cent per gallon rebate.

The consumer warning label on the lower tax rate fuel dispenser states the the fuel dispensed from the pump must be used in a vehicle with NO MORE THAN TWO AXLES AND HAVE A GVW LESS THAN 26,000.

What can you possibly not understand? Maybe you need a refresher course in reading? I would actually pay to watch you try your so-called theories on for size with an ADOT officer. Maybe you will let us all know when you next plan to purchase fuel in AZ and I will personally arrange to have an ADOT officer there if you would like.

Why don't you try reading the actual law and not the label. You are really making yourself look foolish here.

[msmith1199]

TucsonJim wrote:

Rollnhome wrote:
Also note a MH in Arizona requires a different drivers license than a passenger carrying vehicle. Therefore they are two different types of vehicles.

True - If you are driving a vehicle in excess of 26,001 pounds, you are required to obtain a commercial driver's license in Arizona.

This also includes combinations of vehicles that exceed 26,001 pounds if the trailer exceeds 10,000 pounds.

Motorhomes in AZ don't require a commercial license.

A. Notwithstanding section 28-3101, a person who operates an authorized emergency vehicle, a farm vehicle or a recreational vehicle may operate the vehicle with a class A, B, C, D or G license.

B. For the purposes of this section:

5. "Recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

[msmith1199]

Rollnhome wrote:
Arizona DOT definition of Recreational Vehicle taken from:

Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 28 Transportation - Section 28-3102

"Recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

Here is the list of "use vehicles"

A "use class motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses use fuel on a highway in this state and that is a road tractor, truck tractor, truck or passenger carrying vehicle having a declared gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds or having more than two axles.

A passenger carrying vehicle is defined by USDOT as: simplified... A bus or motorcoach ( tour bus) designed to carry 15 or more passengers.

RVs are not on the list therefore no need to exempt.
The listed exemptions are exemptions to vehicle types listed as "use class motor vehicle.

Therefore RVs pay 18¢ fuel tax.

100% in agreement. I did not find that USDOT definition that says 15 or more passengers, but that makes sense too.