Help with hitch / tongue weight

[rhetthughes]

Hello All! I'm in the early stages of camper shopping (wanting to upgrade) and I would love some help understanding the tongue weight limits. I have read on 1000 different sites that the max tongue weight of the tow vehicle includes the weight of the trailer hitch plus "the total weight of the cargo behind the rear axle of the two vehicle." What exactly is that cargo referring to? Is that the weight of the cargo in the bed of my truck behind the rear axle? The weight of the cargo in the underneath storage at the front of my camper (which is technically weight behind the rear axle of my tow vehicle)? Or is it a combination of the two? I have a 2014 F150 with max tow package and a 1120 max hitch / tongue weight. I also have a 12,000 lb Equalizer WD hitch. A lot of the campers I have really liked are in the neighborhood of 900 lb hitch weight. So that is cutting it close and I want to know if I am ok there? I appreciate any wisdom you wish to pass along! Thank you!

[LarryJM]

ktmrfs wrote:
Rather than talk about what is or is not tongue weight, I think about it more of what weight do I want the WD hitch to distribute. Like Larry, My truck bed is usually pretty full.

even w/o the trailer hooked up, the front of the truck rises some, not much but some.

I've set my WD hitch up so that with my typical truck bed load AND the trailer hooked up, once the bars are engaged, the front of the truck is back to the level it is if there is NOTHING in the truck bed and NO trailer hooked up.

So, like Larry, my WD hitch is transferring this extra weight, in this case tongue weight and stuff behind the truck axle, back to the TV front axle and Trailer rear axle.

CORRECT and at least YOU UNDERSTAND and what does get somewhat confusing is using the term "TONGUE WEIGHT" and thinking it's a fixed value. I like to refer to the weight of just the trailer tongue as "dead tongue weight" to differentiate it to things like tongue wt as used in receiver capacities and even WDH bar sizing where the latter includes this temporary "CARGO" weight.

Larry

[ktmrfs]

Rather than talk about what is or is not tongue weight, I think about it more of what weight do I want the WD hitch to distribute. Like Larry, My truck bed is usually pretty full.

even w/o the trailer hooked up, the front of the truck rises some, not much but some.

I've set my WD hitch up so that with my typical truck bed load AND the trailer hooked up, once the bars are engaged, the front of the truck is back to the level it is if there is NOTHING in the truck bed and NO trailer hooked up.

So, like Larry, my WD hitch is transferring this extra weight, in this case tongue weight and stuff behind the truck axle, back to the TV front axle and Trailer rear axle.

[LarryJM]

lbrjet wrote:
With your theory Larry my truck's bumper, receiver, tail gate, spare tire and everything else aft of the rear tires would be considered tongue weight.

When you set up a WDH you are supposed to load the truck as you would for camping first. This is the baseline for all further calculations and none of this weight is tongue weight.

We can just agree to disagree.

You're not reading what I said ... your bumper, receiver, tail gate, spare tire are not CARGO that is added temporarily after your WDH has been adjusted for an unloaded condition. As such they are not germane to what I'm talking about. My example of standing on the bumper after running across the scales with your WDH engaged is an example of CARGO added. Furthermore any weight that never varies that is after the rear axle also doesn't fall into the cargo category that should be considered "TONGUE WEIGHT" as it is used in the receiver and WDH capacities in a WDH configuration.

In a non WDH configuration temporary cargo aft the the axle does not go against the "TONGUE WEIGHT" receiver capacities, but the drawbar/hitch head of say a WDH type system along with anything attached to the drawbar like a bike rack along with the bikes do count against that number.

For most folks this issue is very minor, but in my case I have at times carry in excess of 250lbs of temporary cargo whose weight is basically at the extreme rear of my van on the top of my secure storage area as seen in the pic below (that is 4 yellow diesel fuel containers, a EU2000 generator and a toolbox full of tools along with some other misc items.



Larry

[lbrjet]

With your theory Larry my truck's bumper, receiver, tail gate, spare tire and everything else aft of the rear tires would be considered tongue weight.

When you set up a WDH you are supposed to load the truck as you would for camping first. This is the baseline for all further calculations and none of this weight is tongue weight.

We can just agree to disagree.

[LarryJM]

Terryallan wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

lbrjet wrote:
Weight in the back of your truck counts against payload, but it is not tongue weight.

This is the correct answer. The load in the back of the truck, including the hitch itself is NOT tongue weight. It is part of the payload / GVWR of the truck.
Tongue weight. Is the actual weight of the trailer tongue. Determined mostly by where you load the weight INSIDE the trailer.

Thing is. You have to leave enough payload to carry the tongue weight, because it too counts against the payload / GVWR of the truck. You also have to be sure your receiver is rated to carry the tongue weight of your trailer. Say your receiver can carry 950lb of tongue weight using a WDH. Your tongue weight cannot be more than 950lb.

And do remember. the truck's brakes are only designed to stop the GVWR of the truck. They are NOT designed to stop the GCVWR which is the truck, plus the trailer. In other words, They are not designed stop the GCVWR of the truck.

That view is IMO too simplistic and not really correct. My answer to this is in my post HERE. Ron in his last post agrees at least in concept with parts of my position. I do agree with his view as it applies to what to use as the percentage of TW to total trailer wt. to estimate overall trailer stability.

I do concede that my position regarding cargo aft of the TV rear axle is fairly complex and near impossible to accurately determine since what is important for receiver TW rating and sizing of WDH bars is the "weight" that would be applied at the point of the ball that would equal the same "lever moment" as this "additional" cargo wt. I would think somewhere this would be in the range of 25-75% of the actual cargo wt. added.

Larry

Simplistic or not. It is factual. Tongue weight. It ONLY the weight of the trailer tongue. Weigh the tongue alone to get it. When hooked to the truck. the tongue weight takes up part of the payload / GVWR. Pretty much it.
To say that the cargo in the back of the truck is part of the tongue weight is not realistic. After all, Unhook the trailer and that cargo weight is still there, but the tongue weight is completely gone. what would you call it then? No tongue, no tongue weight.

NO the fact is your view is just YOUR OPINION which is NOT SHARED by many others including those who produce hardware. The purpose of a WDH is to redistribute the weight (called "TONGUE WEIGHT") that is put on the ball of the hitch and once you hook up the WDH system adding cargo aft of the TV rear axle will increase that value and show up as weights applied to the axles of both the trailer and the TV. Hook up your trailer run across the scales and then have someone stand on your rear bumper and do a second run across the scales and all your weights including those on the TT axles will change. That can only happen if the "TONGUE WEIGHT" has changed unless you have adjusted your WDH system.

In the end as I said in that link there are two "camps" on this and your are in one and I'm in the other, you're not probably going to change unless you're willing to learn and listen rationally and I'm not going to change unless my CAT scale example above was proven to not be correct and all that weight from that person on the rear bumper only showed up on the TV axles only.

Larry

[Terryallan]

LarryJM wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

lbrjet wrote:
Weight in the back of your truck counts against payload, but it is not tongue weight.

This is the correct answer. The load in the back of the truck, including the hitch itself is NOT tongue weight. It is part of the payload / GVWR of the truck.
Tongue weight. Is the actual weight of the trailer tongue. Determined mostly by where you load the weight INSIDE the trailer.

Thing is. You have to leave enough payload to carry the tongue weight, because it too counts against the payload / GVWR of the truck. You also have to be sure your receiver is rated to carry the tongue weight of your trailer. Say your receiver can carry 950lb of tongue weight using a WDH. Your tongue weight cannot be more than 950lb.

And do remember. the truck's brakes are only designed to stop the GVWR of the truck. They are NOT designed to stop the GCVWR which is the truck, plus the trailer. In other words, They are not designed stop the GCVWR of the truck.

That view is IMO too simplistic and not really correct. My answer to this is in my post HERE. Ron in his last post agrees at least in concept with parts of my position. I do agree with his view as it applies to what to use as the percentage of TW to total trailer wt. to estimate overall trailer stability.

I do concede that my position regarding cargo aft of the TV rear axle is fairly complex and near impossible to accurately determine since what is important for receiver TW rating and sizing of WDH bars is the "weight" that would be applied at the point of the ball that would equal the same "lever moment" as this "additional" cargo wt. I would think somewhere this would be in the range of 25-75% of the actual cargo wt. added.

Larry

Simplistic or not. It is factual. Tongue weight. It ONLY the weight of the trailer tongue. Weigh the tongue alone to get it. When hooked to the truck. the tongue weight takes up part of the payload / GVWR. Pretty much it.
To say that the cargo in the back of the truck is part of the tongue weight is not realistic. After all, Unhook the trailer and that cargo weight is still there, but the tongue weight is completely gone. what would you call it then? No tongue, no tongue weight.

[LarryJM]

Terryallan wrote:

lbrjet wrote:
Weight in the back of your truck counts against payload, but it is not tongue weight. I know some hitch companies suggest weight behind the rear axle should be considered as TW when sizing your WDH. I think that is beans as there is no need to distribute any of that weight. This thinking is a recent phenomena and I have no idea how they came up with it, other than to maybe sell you a larger hitch for more money. A 900 lb dry TW will turn into 1100 lbs so you are on the edge but still within spec. OK? It's up to you.

This is the correct answer. The load in the back of the truck, including the hitch itself is NOT tongue weight. It is part of the payload / GVWR of the truck.
Tongue weight. Is the actual weight of the trailer tongue. Determined mostly by where you load the weight INSIDE the trailer.

Thing is. You have to leave enough payload to carry the tongue weight, because it too counts against the payload / GVWR of the truck. You also have to be sure your receiver is rated to carry the tongue weight of your trailer. Say your receiver can carry 950lb of tongue weight using a WDH. Your tongue weight cannot be more than 950lb.

And do remember. the truck's brakes are only designed to stop the GVWR of the truck. They are NOT designed to stop the GCVWR which is the truck, plus the trailer. In other words, They are not designed stop the GCVWR of the truck.

That view is IMO too simplistic and not really correct. My answer to this is in my post HERE. Ron in his last post agrees at least in concept with parts of my position. I do agree with his view as it applies to what to use as the percentage of TW to total trailer wt. to estimate overall trailer stability.

I do concede that my position regarding cargo aft of the TV rear axle is fairly complex and near impossible to accurately determine since what is important for receiver TW rating and sizing of WDH bars is the "weight" that would be applied at the point of the ball that would equal the same "lever moment" as this "additional" cargo wt. I would think somewhere this would be in the range of 25-75% of the actual cargo wt. added.

Larry

[Terryallan]

lbrjet wrote:
Weight in the back of your truck counts against payload, but it is not tongue weight. I know some hitch companies suggest weight behind the rear axle should be considered as TW when sizing your WDH. I think that is beans as there is no need to distribute any of that weight. This thinking is a recent phenomena and I have no idea how they came up with it, other than to maybe sell you a larger hitch for more money. A 900 lb dry TW will turn into 1100 lbs so you are on the edge but still within spec. OK? It's up to you.

This is the correct answer. The load in the back of the truck, including the hitch itself is NOT tongue weight. It is part of the payload / GVWR of the truck.
Tongue weight. Is the actual weight of the trailer tongue. Determined mostly by where you load the weight INSIDE the trailer.

Thing is. You have to leave enough payload to carry the tongue weight, because it too counts against the payload / GVWR of the truck. You also have to be sure your receiver is rated to carry the tongue weight of your trailer. Say your receiver can carry 950lb of tongue weight using a WDH. Your tongue weight cannot be more than 950lb.

And do remember. the truck's brakes are only designed to stop the GVWR of the truck. They are NOT designed to stop the GCVWR which is the truck, plus the trailer. In other words, They are not designed stop the GCVWR of the truck.

[handye9]

rhetthughes wrote:
Thank you all for the helpful advice. Sounds like I should work towards finding a camper that meets our needs with a tongue weight down in the 700 lb range to be safe.

Good thinking.

If dry tongue weight is giving you concerns, loaded weight could become a big issue.

Tongue weight is not a constant weight. It fluctuates with and during every trip. You won't necessarily load the same items, in the same amounts, and in the same locations, on every trip. During the trip, water, propane, and groceries get used up, and holding tanks get filled. All of this affects your tongue weight.

Holding tanks can have a significant impact. In my case, I have a galley tank that is in front of the trailer axles and a fresh tank that is behind the axles. During any given trip, my tongue weight can be anywhere between 975 and 1300 lbs. My advertised dry tongue weight was 888 lbs. I'm at my heaviest tongue weight with empty fresh tank, still have groceries on board, and galley tank is full. I have camped in places without a nearby dump station, and had to tow with that 1300 lbs on the tongue.

Take a look at the loading sticker on your drivers door post. You'll see a cargo carrying capacity (CCC) or payload number. That is the capacity the truck has to carry the weight of aftermarket accessories (bed covers, undercoating, bed liners, floor mats, etc), fuel, people, pets, cargo (in or on the truck), weight distributing hitch, and trailer tongue weight, combined.

If you add up your weights on fuel, accessories, people, pets, cargo, and WD hitch, then subtract the total from your payload number. The remaining capacity is the max available for trailer tongue weight. Dividing that number by .13 will give you a ball park for loaded trailer weight that is still within your specs. Here's a link that will help with that. Give yourself some wiggle room for unexpected guests or unplanned cargo, etc.

[rhetthughes]

Thank you all for the helpful advice. Sounds like I should work towards finding a camper that meets our needs with a tongue weight down in the 700 lb range to be safe.

[lbrjet]

Weight in the back of your truck counts against payload, but it is not tongue weight. I know some hitch companies suggest weight behind the rear axle should be considered as TW when sizing your WDH. I think that is beans as there is no need to distribute any of that weight. This thinking is a recent phenomena and I have no idea how they came up with it, other than to maybe sell you a larger hitch for more money. A 900 lb dry TW will turn into 1100 lbs so you are on the edge but still within spec. OK? It's up to you.

[ktmrfs]

harley-dave wrote:
You guys are not entirely correct. Tongue weight is just that. how much weight the tongue is putting on the hitch ball. Here. There are several sites around discussing this. Don't get this one confused with PIN weight which applies to 5th wheels which will include all that other weight in the back of the truck.

Dave

my post outlines exactly what you said, the weight the tongue is putting on the hitch ball.

FWIW, virtually ALL the weight of the propane tanks and battery(s) add directly to tongue weight since they are so far forward on the tongue. Tongue weight was measured both with a sherline scale and a weigh station scale.

[harley-dave]

You guys are not entirely correct. Tongue weight is just that. how much weight the tongue is putting on the hitch ball. Here. There are several sites around discussing this. Don't get this one confused with PIN weight which applies to 5th wheels which will include all that other weight in the back of the truck.

Dave

[Chuck_thehammer]

people, fuel, stuff in rear of truck, propane tanks, battery(s) forward storage of trailer is all tongue weight. some can be offset with storage in rear of trailer.. but not all.

20 pound propane tanks are 20 pounds of propane and 15 pounds of tank.= 35 pounds each
30 pound propane tanks are 30 pounds of propane and 25 pounds of tank.= 55 pounds each.

you seem to be limited by the 1100 pound limit.

[ktmrfs]

well, first. if the claimed empty tongue weight is 900 lbs, you'll likely be near 1200-1400 or more lbs once your loaded up.
First empty tongue weight usually assumes NO propane in the tanks, NO batteries.
figure 60lbs added tongue weight for each battery, 30 lbs extra tongue weight for each 7.5 gallon propane tank. as starters.

As an example, my measured tongue weight when my trailer came from the factory was near 750lbs, right what the spec was. Actual tongue weight with full water tanks and the trailer ready to go. 1450lbs! empty the water tanks, still 1200 lbs.

Now I do have 4 batteries on the tongue, so you could subtract another 120lbs with only two batteries, but even then my "800" lb tongue weight would still be near 1100 lbs w/o any water and near 1300 with water.