RV Fuel Issues & Prices - Post 'Em Here!

[Dick_A]

All other fuel threads will be automatically deleted. 🙂

[stevenicoldeact]

eltejano1 wrote:
...we may be better served by putting our collective nose to the grindstone on the technology front. This discussion has changed my mind - from conservation to alternatives.

Jack

...despite what my fellow RVer's think my political slant is, I lean more to the right than too the left, but mostly, I stay to the middle, because that's what seems to be the place where reasonable people think.

Don't dump the conservation thing! It makes us think of solutions. It's important to slow down and evaluate how we can effectively work as a unit with our differences put into play to come to a solution that reflects the will of the people, like our forefathers intended. Somehow, someway, our two-party system has morphed into one side or the other thinking: "It's my way, or no way."

Until we all step back, no matter what side of the political spectrum we are on, and look beyond what we hear and see on TV and the local papers, we're doomed to be stuck in the blame-game.

Do something, get involved, talk to people, and remember what it is about where we live that makes it great: we the people...

Please pass the crackers, that's enough 😛 cheese...

[Sea_Dog]

I agree with your "gitter done" attitude.

The problem is as you know, a small noisy faction can delay projects for years!

Remember the Spotted Owl, some sort of minnow, not to mention polar bears and cariboo.

When the man on the moon and building ships in a week was taking place, everyone was on the same page.

Now you have the green factions,well educated and noisy, that feel that we are getting what we deserve, paying for years of exess.

I still do not see how there can be any major shift from imported oil in time to prevent a continuation of what is now happening, the descresionary dollars that keep comerce afloat are being diverted to transportation and heating, just at the time that they should be spent on consumer items to keep the stores open and jobs available.

[topflite51]

Sea Dog wrote:
And why are the oil company's going to sell all of this expensive to produce shale oil for peanuts?
Out of the goodness of their hearts?
Why if they would do this is domestic oil not now selling for fifty bucks a barrel?

When will we in North America get over the idea that we are somehow special and should be cut some slack so that we can go our merrie ways unconcerned about the world around us?

Do you see the North American farmers cutting the price of wheat because the cost of bread is rising?
Guess not!
Instead, they lobby the governments for subsidies so that they can control prices by taking land out of production.

Why should oil companies act any differently than any other corporation?

You may as well lobby to have GM price new Chevvies at two thousand dollars like they were when I was a kid.
Might have better results!

Sea Dog, to listen to you, America has no options, guess we should just stick our heads in the "tar sands". We are special in the good old US of A, maybe not as special as we think, but we are. We have for the most part solved more problems, then we have created. Not many countries can say that, can they? Given a little time and hard work, we in America can get it done, we always do. We have been lax in this country about not having an energy policy, it is about time we all get on the train and get it done. We have options, it is time we start exercising them.

[Hurricaner]

We all know how long it takes to jump through the hoops to build any new infrastructure, Where could we start to build a new nuclear plant and have it running in less than ten or fifteen years?

Although I tend to agree with this statement... lets not forget that we put a man on the moon in 5 years and in ww2 we built an entire ship in less than a week. Don't tell me it can't be done, I know better.

Sam

[Sea_Dog]

My personal opinion is that shale oil like ethanol, is a feel good answer which has no hope of addressing the present problem, which is, we are going to see a change in our society like has never been seen in our countries before.
It is not only our personal divers and RV's, how long do you think that shipping companies, farmers and contractors can afford to keep absorbing increasing costs without passing them on to we the consumer?

Practical wind solar and nuclear in meaningful qualities large enough to offset our present problems are far in the future, not now when we need them.

We all know how long it takes to jump through the hoops to build any new infrastructure, Where could we start to build a new nuclear plant and have it running in less than ten or fifteen years?

I think that learning to better live with today's situation is more practical than counting on a windmill to create energy to propel your electric car or transport truck.

[eltejano1]

Thanks, Sam. I'm going to research shale as you suggest. $75/barrel is a bargain! I see it rose $3.00 today, to $133, after falling $5.00 on Friday.

It seems like a shame, after spending all that money on the Iraq war, that we can't at least get some of that oil at a good price. But we liberated Kuwait and I don't think they are giving us any preference either. I think we should be able to take Iraqui oil at a special price and be allowed to establish a permanent air base in Iraq after we got rid of their dictator. And Kuwait should at least be giving us a substantial discount.

Jack

[Hurricaner]

Estimates for the North Dakota formation range from 4 years domestic supply at 1998 consumption (25 billion bbl) or 3 years supply at current consumption (same 25 billion bbl) up to about 15 times that amount.

Here is an article from this website. http://ostseis.anl.gov/guide/oilshale/index.cfm

Oil Shale Resources



Location of the Green River Formation Oil Shale and Its Main Basins

While oil shale is found in many places worldwide, by far the largest deposits in the world are found in the United States in the Green River Formation, which covers portions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. Estimates of the oil resource in place within the Green River Formation range from 1.2 to 1.8 trillion barrels. Not all resources in place are recoverable; however, even a moderate estimate of 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from oil shale in the Green River Formation is three times greater than the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. Present U.S. demand for petroleum products is about 20 million barrels per day. If oil shale could be used to meet a quarter of that demand, the estimated 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from the Green River Formation would last for more than 400 years.

[H_1]

Hurricaner wrote:
... Do you suggest we leave things as they are and be at the mercy of OPEC? Canada is leading the way on a lot of this technology with there oil sand production. With fuel efficient vehicles and shale oil we could be totally energy independent in 5 years. At least the money would be in this country and not in the hands of people who are committed to destroying us.

Sam

Mostly I agree, but the "in 5 years" leaves off the notion of "for X years.
Some of the posts have mentioned the 74-77 oil experience, and asked why we didn't learn the lessons from those. Estimates for the North Dakota formation range from 4 years domestic supply at 1998 consumption (25 billion bbl) or 3 years supply at current consumption (same 25 billion bbl) up to about 15 times that amount. It buys us time, time that we would be wise to use to figure out other ways of keeping ourselves warm, lit, and mobile.

Of course, what little I've read of Bakken, indicates it will take some time to figure out how to access the reserves and some more to extract it. Meaning that it won't be able to provide our needs all at once. This is good long term, as it means we won't have another several years of $1.50 gas followed by another shock with people screaming for the heads of CEOs, congressmen, and presidents.

If we pursue alternatives aggressively, there are some real upsides, I think, not the least of which is what you mentioned. The other thing that's interesting in all of this is the different dynamic of renewable (wind, solar, and to an extent nuclear) energy sources as opposed to petro. My initial thought is that alternative energy production is going to be engineering intensive, and provide both technical and manufacturing jobs across a wide spectrum of society, as opposed to oil, which, well, doesn't. But that's just a thought.

[Hurricaner]

Sea Dog, what is your point? Do you suggest we leave things as they are and be at the mercy of OPEC? Canada is leading the way on a lot of this technology with there oil sand production. With fuel efficient vehicles and shale oil we could be totally energy independent in 5 years. At least the money would be in this country and not in the hands of people who are committed to destroying us.

Sam

[Sea_Dog]

And why are the oil company's going to sell all of this expensive to produce shale oil for peanuts?
Out of the goodness of their hearts?
Why if they would do this is domestic oil not now selling for fifty bucks a barrel?

When will we in North America get over the idea that we are somehow special and should be cut some slack so that we can go our merrie ways unconcerned about the world around us?

Do you see the North American farmers cutting the price of wheat because the cost of bread is rising?
Guess not!
Instead, they lobby the governments for subsidies so that they can control prices by taking land out of production.

Why should oil companies act any differently than any other corporation?

You may as well lobby to have GM price new Chevvies at two thousand dollars like they were when I was a kid.
Might have better results!

[Hurricaner]

According to the news stories I have read, I am under the impression that those shale deposits require a humongous amount of energy - I guess they "cook" it - to extract a usable fuel - and the same with getting diesel from coal. ?? I have read that it's not viable because it takes as much energy to make it as you get out of it - but I'm not well-informed on it.

Absolutely not true. It is just a question of the price of oil and environmental impact. It does have a greater effect on the environment as it consumes some of its own energy to produce and this also makes it less profitable than crude oil. Goggle shale oil and you will find there are 3 or 4 pilot plants already in production.

However the provability point is about 75 bucks a barrel, we are there folks but the oil people have to have some kind of a futures contract to go after this stuff. It will take billions to set up the infrastructure and equipment and if the price of oil drops below 75 bucks a barrel they are screwed.

It will happen but this country will probably be in toilet before it does. Had we spent the money that the Iraq war has cost us on this project, we would all be pumping $2.50 gas.

Sam

[eltejano1]

It is conservatively estimated the oil that is recoverable from the shale in WY, CO and UT (The Green River Formation) is over 3 times the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia. Add to that ANWAR, east and west coasts of the US, farther out in the gulf of Mexico. The resources are not so much limited, as they are restricted by Congress.

According to the news stories I have read, I am under the impression that those shale deposits require a humongous amount of energy - I guess they "cook" it - to extract a usable fuel - and the same with getting diesel from coal. ?? I have read that it's not viable because it takes as much energy to make it as you get out of it - but I'm not well-informed on it.

It's such an emotionally and politically charged issue that it's hard to get accurate info on this. Seems like everything you read is heavily slanted in one direction or the other. We do need an energy policy that leads to self-sufficiency. But it seems that all three presidential candidates are avoiding it like the plague. I expect that, when the Dem primaries are over, a national dialogue on energy will develop during the campaign. Maybe we'll have some clear choices at the polls.

It's all very long-term stuff, of course, and won't help us old timers at all. At our age, we'll never see reasonably priced fuel again.

Jack

[sirdrakejr]

Has anyone also noticed that with all the quakes and hurricanes that we have had in the US and in the Gulf, NOT ONE DRILLING RIG LEAKED!! No environmental damage occurred any where. I do not believe the environmentalists make up a majority of citizens. I DO believe they are buying the right congress people though.
Frank

[The_Weekenders]

topflite51 wrote:

eltejano1 wrote:
Frank, our domestic resources are limited.

It is conservatively estimated the oil that is recoverable from the shale in WY, CO and UT (The Green River Formation) is over 3 times the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia. Add to that ANWAR, east and west coasts of the US, farther out in the gulf of Mexico. The resources are not so much limited, as they are restricted by Congress.

Utilizing these resources would be a major part of an energy policy that would be beneficial to America. Add to it solar, wind, thermal, coal and nuclear and in 10 to 15 years we could be truly energy independent.

Don't forget the Bakken Formation in North Dakota, huge reserves there as well. Bad news though for the naysayers who seem to hope for gloom and doom, right Jack?. JMO

[topflite51]

eltejano1 wrote:
Frank, our domestic resources are limited.

It is conservatively estimated the oil that is recoverable from the shale in WY, CO and UT (The Green River Formation) is over 3 times the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia. Add to that ANWAR, east and west coasts of the US, farther out in the gulf of Mexico. The resources are not so much limited, as they are restricted by Congress.

Utilizing these resources would be a major part of an energy policy that would be beneficial to America. Add to it solar, wind, thermal, coal and nuclear and in 10 to 15 years we could be truly energy independent.