Volunteers and paid employees

[halfwright]

The park I am volunteering at hires part-time summer help and has some college interns. They all get a salary. They are in their late teens or early twenties, whereas I am seventy. I am doing maintenance (painting, building repair, minor electrical, plumbing). Often, the kids are assigned to work with me. The full time staff expects me to supervise and lead the team. Therein lies the problem. I do not feel that as a volunteer I should be telling the paid help what to do. I feel that the paid employees should have the responsibility. Am I wrong?

[westernrvparkow]

Dog Folks wrote:
westernrvparkowner:

I understand that this is a very complex issue but:

I would ask to see some sources, as the 1099 issue has been discussed at least 50 times on other RV boards and the bottom line, as confirmed by the IRS, was determined as:

Private, For Profit Employer - You are an Employee
If you are working as an employee for a private, for-profit employer, there is a clear test to determine whether the value of the campsite they provide is taxable. If these conditions are met, it is NOT taxable and no tax form is necessary from the employer.

1) The campsite must be on-site at the employer's place of business.

2) Having you live on-site must be for the convenience of the employer.

3) Living on-site must be a condition to getting the position

Do your work campers fit the above conditions?

2 and 3 do not apply to most workamping positions. Yes, you could argue they were needed for overnight security, but proving it becomes problematic. Otherwise, there is no need for a workamper to live on site to work in the office, clean the restrooms, mow the grass, or do whatever else is done on a daily basis. As for requiring living on site as a matter of convenience, that is not at the employers discretion, it means the job cannot be completed by someone who does not live on the premises, such as Oilfield Gate guards who must be there whenever someone enters the premises, or something like a fireman at an oil refinery, where they would need to be at their duty station quickly and they tasks they would perform would be exclusive to their position and training. Hard to make that argument for a clogged toilet.
The bigger issue in my mind is even if you want to provide the RV site free of rent, you still need to provide wages if they are an employee. Paying minimum wage is not a discretionary decision. If people work for you, they must be paid for the hours worked, and those wages must meet the minimum wage requirement. Paying Wages come with the need to provide unemployment compensation, you must withhold taxes and you need to provide workman's compensation coverage. Those items come with significant costs. If others skirt those rules and requirements I am at a disadvantage. My costs exceed the costs those other parks incur. it may seem unfair, but an employer giving and an employee taking a site as the only compensation for hours worked, without reporting it as income is illegal.

[2gypsies1]

First, talk to your boss for an exact explanation of what your goal is supposed to be regarding the interns. Explain your concerns.

I would guess that since the interns will be working alongside you and since you know what the job entails, you should be honored that they think that highly of you to show the interns 'the ropes' of the job needed to be done.

Just make it a fun project for you and for them. This doesn't have to be a serious venture on your part by just giving them orders. Young folks that age really enjoy being around and can learn from older folks. They're not going to resent learning from a volunteer. We've done similar things as volunteers. We realize that parks are short-handed and our bosses really don't have the time to devote on something like this. It's all part of helping our parks out.

Plus, keep in mind that the interns are really going to be helping you out with those painting or maintenance chores. So it's a win-win situation.

[Dog_Folks]

3oaks wrote:
The beauty part about being a volunteer is you are not dependent on an income from the job and are free to leave anytime. 😉

That is the major advantage.

Also, unlike a regular job my wife likes that fact that we know when the job begins and ends. (Calendar) We know when it will be time to move on. 🙂

[3oaks]

The beauty part about being a volunteer is you are not dependent on an income from the job and are free to leave anytime. 😉

[Dog_Folks]

westernrvparkowner:

I understand that this is a very complex issue but:

I would ask to see some sources, as the 1099 issue has been discussed at least 50 times on other RV boards and the bottom line, as confirmed by the IRS, was determined as:

Private, For Profit Employer - You are an Employee
If you are working as an employee for a private, for-profit employer, there is a clear test to determine whether the value of the campsite they provide is taxable. If these conditions are met, it is NOT taxable and no tax form is necessary from the employer.

1) The campsite must be on-site at the employer's place of business.

2) Having you live on-site must be for the convenience of the employer.

3) Living on-site must be a condition to getting the position

Do your work campers fit the above conditions?

[westernrvparkow]

Dog Folks wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

Do you mean to say that all these private parks around the country that have work campers in exchange for the site, are doing do illegally. Sorry I can't buy that.

Whether you can buy it or not, it is true. Won't be an issue unless there is an audit (could be a big deal) or an on the job injury (which could be a huge deal).
The law requires the value of the site be reported as income (1099) and if the people have specific jobs to perform on the park's schedule using the park's tools and equipment, they are not contract employees and must be regular employees, subject to minimum wage laws, workman's compensation, tax witholdings, and any other state or federal requirement. Just because many parks and people ignore the laws, it doesn't invalidate those laws.
We operate 100% in compliance. Others do not. It does put us at a competitive disadvantage at times and we have lost some potentially great employees because we won't ignore those laws. (people who didn't want any reported income due to Social Security limits etc). Just a fact of owning and operating a business.

[dewey02]

You are getting a lot of answers from people here, including some questioning your intentions.
My suggestion (which you can take or leave) is that you have a good long talk with YOUR supervisor, whomever that may be. Explain your concerns and your willingness to either work with these young and paid people, or to work alone. What does your volunteer agreement say? What are you getting as a result of your volunteer efforts (a free camp site?). If you are simply volunteering your time and work for no compensation whatsoever, then you have every right to be very specific about what you will do and how you will do it. If it is of value, the organization will be happy to oblige. If they don't want your free service, so be it.

I am speaking from some experience here, as I am a retired recreation program manager (including campgrounds and volunteers) from a federal agency. I do know this for certain: A volunteer/unpaid person CANNOT be a supervisor of paid employees. So someone that is a paid employee must be the supervisor of those summer students and interns. Whoever that person is, they are not fulfilling their responsibility by expecting you to supervise their people.

On the other hand, what some others have said here is true. Elderly volunteers have many skills that even agency people and agency supervisors may not have. There is real value in sharing your skills with others, especially young people who want to learn. But that is the key...they must want to learn. If there is resentment of you telling them what to do, again you need to talk to whomever you report to and clarify exactly what your role is to be.

I hope this helps.

[Naio]

I think it is very, very unlikely that the kids are thinking in terms of chain of command, totem poles, and volunteer vs. paid intern. Young people just don't care about that stuff.

If you are getting resentment vibe, it's either because those particular kids resent any adults telling them what to do, or you are imagining it because you don't want to be in the boss role.

Being a boss is a whole new set of job skills. It takes effort to learn, and, for us introspective types, it takes some soul searching. Your bosses probably don't realise this -- they already have the skills of supervising and they forget how hard they worked to learn them, and they may not be the soul searching types. They don't realise they are asking a lot of you.

I agree; it is ok to say that you did not sign up for a supervisory role and you don't want to do it. You can soften the blow by pointing out that it takes a lot of skills that you don't have. Flattery will get you everywhere :).

[Dog_Folks]

halfwright wrote:
Maybe I did not express myself very well. As a volunteer, I do not think that I am as "high on the totem pole" as paid employees. I am afraid that there is resentment when I tell the kids what to do. I am not a pushy person and have never wanted to be a supervisor. I much prefer working by myself. But, as Don said, I always have the option of leaving.

If a paid employees assigns you the job to supervise, totem poles don't matter.

Kids may resent you IF management has not clearly defined to them the "chain of command."

I know how you feel about supervising. I spent my entire career as the "boss." I am done with that.

Why don't you approach your "boss" and let them know that you are not interested in supervising. Most facilities utilizing volunteers will go out of their way to provide a good experience. If they insist that you do something you do not wish to do.....time to move on.

You are not getting paid enough to put up with something you do not wish to do. 🙂

[Bird_Freak]

halfwright wrote:
Maybe I did not express myself very well. As a volunteer, I do not think that I am as "high on the totem pole" as paid employees. I am afraid that there is resentment when I tell the kids what to do. I am not a pushy person and have never wanted to be a supervisor. I much prefer working by myself. But, as Don said, I always have the option of leaving.

Your totem pole is your knowledge and experience these kids do not have. if you think these kids resent you then its time for a talk with them and upper management.

[halfwright]

Maybe I did not express myself very well. As a volunteer, I do not think that I am as "high on the totem pole" as paid employees. I am afraid that there is resentment when I tell the kids what to do. I am not a pushy person and have never wanted to be a supervisor. I much prefer working by myself. But, as Don said, I always have the option of leaving.

[JiminDenver]

Jim

I can understand if didn't tell you beforehand the you would be responsible for what and how others do things. That can take a easy, laid back job and turn it into a stressful nightmare. I know because we went from 10 employees to none, I made more money and did less work in the end.

[Dog_Folks]

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

Do you mean to say that all these private parks around the country that have work campers in exchange for the site, are doing do illegally. Sorry I can't buy that.

[newman_fulltime]

halfwright wrote:
The park I am volunteering at hires part-time summer help and has some college interns. They all get a salary. They are in their late teens or early twenties, whereas I am seventy. I am doing maintenance (painting, building repair, minor electrical, plumbing). Often, the kids are assigned to work with me. The full time staff expects me to supervise and lead the team. Therein lies the problem. I do not feel that as a volunteer I should be telling the paid help what to do. I feel that the paid employees should have the responsibility. Am I wrong?

So your volunteering and paying for your spot?Or your getting paid by your spot fee is your pay

[westernrvparkow]

Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.