Will Air bags make a big difference?

[GaryS1953]

So we've had a 21'5th wheel for 16 years, and love it, but it's getting long in the tooth, and it's a little small, so we bought a 2012 Shasta Revere BH, 27', 31' with the hitch. We took it on our first trip this past week and had a real problem with the truck bucking up and down and also swaying. It's 5777 dry weight, and our Chevy is a half-ton, rated up to 9400 lbs. Anyway, we made it to our destination, but I felt so uncomfortable driving it do the swaying and shaking. The camper came with an old equalizing hitch, but not sway bars, the owner said he had never felt he needed them. I called a local hitch place and had them install a Curt hitch with integrated sway control, and thought we were all set. It DID help a little with the sway but didn't seem to help much with the bucking. Any little bump we went over the truck bucked up and down and, and the steering wheel felt like the truck was over loaded. I called the hitch dealer back and he said I probably need to have airbags or something else done to strengthen the suspension. My question, would that make a huge difference? My wife says she can't ride in this truck if we can't solve this problem as the bucking and vibration makes her sick. Mind you, we've been across country several times with the 5th wheel. We had occasional bucking with that, but only when we went over severe bumps like a bad bridge transit for example. I've got $700 invested in the hitch, with little to show for it, and the airbag would cost about $1000. Well worth it, if it works, but not if it only makes a little difference. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

[JRscooby]

GaryS1953 wrote:


The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520

The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700

This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.

This is the fault of internet. We tell you to weigh with and without the trailer, but just assume you will know how to use scale. I'm sorry.
The Cat platform is divided into 3 sections, normally with blue lines around each. When you pull on you should park with one line under the TV, so front axle is on 1 segment, rear on 2nd, and trailer on 3rd. Parked like that each time you weigh the ticket will have 4 numbers; STEERING,(=front axle) DRIVE,(=back axle of TV) TRAILER, (=the trailer axles) and GROSS (=total weight of unit) The pass w/o trailer the 3rd segment will read 0
With all those numbers we can figure out what adjustments need to be made. Subtract Gross w/o trailer from gross with it, you have weight of trailer. Subtract what scale reads as Trailer from that number, you have tongue weight. Is that percentage in the 10-15% range?
Comparing DRIVE weight to ratings on rear tires, are tires overloaded at 35PSI? (BTW, I have never seen factory recommend tires on 1/2 ton be maxed out on sidewall labeled pressure)
Weight on front w/wo tells how much the TW is subtracting from front. Is that enough to cause issue?

[Grit_dog]

valhalla360 wrote:

GaryS1953 wrote:

Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs

Any further help is appreciated.

CAT should have gave you weights per axle. What were those with and without the trailer hooked up.

Also, something isn't making sense with the camper weight. If the empty weight is 5777, that would imply you only have about 200lb in the trailer. Batteries and propane would add that much. Did you take the trailer & truck loaded as if you were going camping? No sense getting weight data that doesn't match what you will actually be towing.

Tongue weight was on the truck weight….

[Durb]

GaryS1953 wrote:

Durb wrote:
Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.

The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.

I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.

I'm not sure I understand about putting tension on the bars by "tilting the hitch head down". I have a Curt 17601 weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control. I don't know how I would tilt the hitch head, but I could raise the height of the equalizing/sway bars, which obviously would put more tension on them. Is that what you meant?

Thanks, Gary

Search Curt 17601 on Google and an installation video will come up, or copy and paste this URL. (https://youtu.be/ki7Z_FtfFEY). They show how to adjust the two adjustment screws on the hitch head to tilt the bars down thus increasing spring tension.

[valhalla360]

GaryS1953 wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

GaryS1953 wrote:

Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs

Any further help is appreciated.

CAT should have gave you weights per axle. What were those with and without the trailer hooked up.

Also, something isn't making sense with the camper weight. If the empty weight is 5777, that would imply you only have about 200lb in the trailer. Batteries and propane would add that much. Did you take the trailer & truck loaded as if you were going camping? No sense getting weight data that doesn't match what you will actually be towing.

The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520

The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700

This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.

That's even more confusing. I assume the 2nd sheet is the truck weighed without the trailer hooked up but the first ticket shows the truck weighing less (6540 vs 6700).

When you weigh the truck there should be at least 3 pads. You want to get the steering axle on the front one, the drive axle on the 2nd one with the trailer on the 3rd pad. This will give you each of the truck axles and the trailer axle (combined).

Then reweigh with just the truck so you get two additional axle weights.

Stripping stuff out of the rig before weighing will confuse the issue. The water tank can easily be 300-400lb, add in a few hundred in other gear...that can easily shift the hitch weight by 3-5% or push the truck over it's payload limits.

Watch a couple videos on "how to weigh rv at CAT scale" on youtube they will give you a better idea of how to do it and what the results should look like.

[GaryS1953]

time2roll wrote:

GaryS1953 wrote:


Trailer Specs

Hitch Weight 663 lbs
GVWR 9463 lbs
Dry Weight 5777 lbs
Cargo Capacity 3212 lbs

Vehicle Specs

4WD:
Double Cab, 5.8 V8
9600 lbs / 4354 kgs – 5.3L (3.42 axle)

I would count that as 9463 trailer and the truck is maxed out. Drive and adjust your expectations accordingly. How much does the rear sag once fully connected to roll? May need to tighten up the distribution bars if the rear drops more than a couple inches.

Anything in the bed?

On the camping trip we had a fair amount in the bed, I'm guessing close to 600 lbs, including my fifth wheel hitch, which I had left in because I still have it and need to move it. I took it all out, and it's now empty. That did seem to help a little, but the front of the truck still feels light and less controllable, though it doesn't seem to buck quite as much now. The rear of the truck sags by 1 and half inches when hooked up.

[GaryS1953]

valhalla360 wrote:

GaryS1953 wrote:

Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs

Any further help is appreciated.

CAT should have gave you weights per axle. What were those with and without the trailer hooked up.

Also, something isn't making sense with the camper weight. If the empty weight is 5777, that would imply you only have about 200lb in the trailer. Batteries and propane would add that much. Did you take the trailer & truck loaded as if you were going camping? No sense getting weight data that doesn't match what you will actually be towing.

The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520

The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700

This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.

[time2roll]

GaryS1953 wrote:


Trailer Specs

Hitch Weight 663 lbs
GVWR 9463 lbs
Dry Weight 5777 lbs
Cargo Capacity 3212 lbs

Vehicle Specs

4WD:
Double Cab, 5.8 V8
9600 lbs / 4354 kgs – 5.3L (3.42 axle)

I would count that as 9463 trailer and the truck is maxed out. Drive and adjust your expectations accordingly. How much does the rear sag once fully connected to roll? May need to tighten up the distribution bars if the rear drops more than a couple inches.

Anything in the bed?

[valhalla360]

GaryS1953 wrote:

Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs

Any further help is appreciated.

CAT should have gave you weights per axle. What were those with and without the trailer hooked up.

Also, something isn't making sense with the camper weight. If the empty weight is 5777, that would imply you only have about 200lb in the trailer. Batteries and propane would add that much. Did you take the trailer & truck loaded as if you were going camping? No sense getting weight data that doesn't match what you will actually be towing.

[GaryS1953]

Durb wrote:
Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.

The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.

I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.

I'm not sure I understand about putting tension on the bars by "tilting the hitch head down". I have a Curt 17601 weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control. I don't know how I would tilt the hitch head, but I could raise the height of the equalizing/sway bars, which obviously would put more tension on them. Is that what you meant?

Thanks, Gary

[GaryS1953]

MFL wrote:
You don't mention what your P-rated truck tire max pressure is, but in any case, the front truck tires would not need to be at max pressure. You are not adding much extra wt to truck steer axle. Truck rear tires at max sidewall pressure.

Jerry

Jerry, the truck tires max pressure is 35 psi which is where I have them at.

[MFL]

You don't mention what your P-rated truck tire max pressure is, but in any case, the front truck tires would not need to be at max pressure. You are not adding much extra wt to truck steer axle. Truck rear tires at max sidewall pressure.

Jerry

[GaryS1953]

FWIW the camper specs say the tongue weight is 663 lbs. Not sure how to go about adding more tension to the hitch bars. It's a Curt with integrated sway control, and the hitch iself has several different attachment points for the ball, supposedly rated for up to 10,000 lbs.

[Grit_dog]

4 pages later, you’ve only provided info that your setup isn’t anywhere near being overloaded or dangerous.

It’s a few hundred bucks and it will stiffen up the rear suspension if that’s your preference

[Durb]

Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.

The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.

I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.

[GaryS1953]

valhalla360 wrote:

GaryS1953 wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
Empty weight is irrelevant and payload often runs out before tow rating.

Swing by a CAT scale and find out what the real weights are (loaded as if you are going on a trip). Take 3 measurements (after the first, you can do re-weighs for like $3, so probably $20-25 total).
- Fully hooked up with the WDH connected.
- Hooked up but disconnect the WDH bars.
- Just the truck.

With this info, you can determine the actual weight of the trailer and the actual hitch weight. Then you can determine the hitch weight and if the truck is overloaded.

On the door of the truck are stickers that provide overall and per axle payload ratings.

It might be that the trucks rear suspension is overloaded or it could be the opposite and the hitch weight is too low. If it's too low, airbags won't help.

I may get to a cat scale, but in the meantime could you elaborate? What is meant by "hitch weight is too low"? Thanks!

Hitch weight should be minimum 10%. Ideally between 12-15% (more is actually better but unlikely your truck could handle it).

Assuming you are at 8000lb loaded (guess based on empty weight plus a couple thousand in cargo, which is very realistic when you figure water, propane, batteries, etc...). You should be looking at around 1000-1200lb hitch weight. Add in say 4 people plus firewood, cooler etc... in the truck. All that counts against payload. You could easily have 2000lb on the truck and most half tons have around 1500lb payload (it can vary drastically). That would leave you over payload and with the squishy suspension on lighter duty 1/2 ton trucks, it can feel squirrely when driving. Airbags can help with the ride if you are overloaded but you are still overloaded, so it's masking the issue.

Alternatively, if you are light on hitch weight say 8%, even if the truck is fine, the trailer can get squirrely. Airbags won't help with this issue.

As previously mentioned, factory empty weights are irrelevant. They don't include any gear you put in the trailer, water, propane, batteries, any aftermarket bolt on items, etc..., so reality is you will never tow at empty weights.

Ok, so I did several things today. I checked and aired up all tires for truck and trailer to max. Then I measured front and rear of the truck with and without the trailer hooked up. Finally I went to a cat scale and got combination weight and weight of truck and camper.

Truck Measures without hooked up
Front 35.75"
Rear 37.75"

Truck Measure after hooked up
Front 36.00"
Rear 36.25

Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs

Any further help is appreciated.