It finally happened

[Karfae69]

We took off for Memorial Day weekend to our local favorite spot. We got checked in and took our dog over to the dog walk area. Our dog a Amstaff with already a flag(because of how she looks) on her met another dog on a leash. There was growling and both dogs reacted, no bites but stage was set. Next morning heading to the beach ran into the 2 week new hire who asked what happened. Had a talk on how both dogs reacted but no harm. Made a great effort to explain that the dogs just did not get along. Was told that other owners stated that "dog was distraught all night", here we go. Fast forward an hour call from local manager as we have had a incident. Again try to explain was nothing serious, our dog has a history there over 3 years of great behavior and both dogs acted up. Letting dogs meet on leash nose to nose was our mistake(both owners). I knew where this was headed and next came the "what if it was a small child?" line and your dog is a pit bull, went downhill from there. So from a grumpy moment at a dog walk we went to your dog may maul a child. I asked if we needed to leave which was requested. Luckily a place nearby that knows us and our dog welcomed us and had space. So this Army vet packed up and moved on. The lesson here is to not put your dog in a position to fail. I should have recognized that the other owner was letting his dog too much in my dogs space rather than letting dogs do what they do, sniff rear ends first. Everyone wants their dog to be buddies with other dogs, do it right.

[gmw_photos]

In my mind this whole discussion is really quite simple at it's core: when I take my Schipperke for a walk, there is no way I will let her go nose to nose with an unknown dog.
I have zero interest in the possibility of having my dog get injured or worse by an unpredictable "other dog" or their equally unpredictable "irresponsible owner".
I do whatever is necessary to keep her safe, even if it means picking her up to let the others pass by.

[toedtoes]

I think everyone agrees that if all dog owners (current and potential) took the time to properly understand their dogs, we wouldn't have the issues we have and all these TV behaviorists/trainers would be obsolete.

And yes, there is a strong bond between humans and dogs.

But, where do these people go to "properly understand" their dogs if they don't understand?

4x4Dodger's belief is that they just need to look inside themselves and all the tools to understanding their dog are locked up inside their genetic coding.

I disagree. I don't believe all those tools are in every person by default. I believe environment has far more to do with it than genetics. A person who has spent years around dogs and around others knowledgeable about dogs will have most likely developed those tools. A person who has never been around dogs or knowledgeable persons, or who has been around persons who have a warped understanding of dogs, will not have developed the proper tools. Those persons need an outside source to provide that knowledge and understanding.

[Go_Dogs]

"I lived in Cambodia for 7 years. The average Cambodian street or neighborhood is far more a risk in many ways than any dog park in the USA. Both my dogs lived there and one is from there and they were healthy and happy. Dog immune systems are amazing things and designed to deal with most of the day to day challenges they face. The average US dog park is a far safer place for your dog than the day to day living areas most dogs deal with all over the world. The fact is we are just spoiled. And we project our fear of germs and disease onto our pets when in fact their immune systems would be better served if they had MORE exposure to the things they need to deal with."

Gee, that shows a real thorough knowledge of immune systems. So, if Cambodian children live in filth, and drink contaminated water-should you send your kids to live in the same conditions to toughen them up? I guess these all of these dog diseases are just a scam that veterinarians invented to make their boat payments? I think the OP should learn to deal with the real world, rather than postulating how people and animals, 'should' act.

[Go_Dogs]

4X4Dodger wrote:

Go Dogs wrote:
The author's credentials are not valid, IMO.

Who do you mean? Which Author?

The articles that Pawz4 me cited and Dog Folks has already commented on.

[4X4Dodger]

Go Dogs wrote:
The author's credentials are not valid, IMO.

Who do you mean? Which Author?

[4X4Dodger]

Dog Folks wrote:
4X4Dodger: The issues you mention are very true! Unfortunately the American public, wants instant results, with no effort and cheap!

More than once a potential client of my dog training classes would look at me and say:"You mean I have to work with the dog EVRY DAY?"

I told them it was only 15 minutes per day.

The person with the out of control dog would respond:"Never mind. That is too much work. I don't have the time for this. Do you train dogs without me?"

They want a well behaved dog, but are not willing to expend just a little effort to have one. Again, they want instant results.

Look at all the diet pills, etc. NO effort, instant results. TV Doctors are no better. If you just listen to them and use what they are pushing, they are going to save your life in 30 minutes!!

You said:" I am not against the idea of Dog experts at all I just really question the need for them. If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively."

Yes there would be no need IF we "took the time." That is the problem; We as a society, will NOT take the time, or make the effort. They are willing to pay to have "experts" do the work for them. Or buy the latest book or DVD that is full of false promises.

You are correct and once again we agree on more than was apparent at the outset.

[4X4Dodger]

Go Dogs wrote:
' If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively.'

Okay. While you at it, try and think like all the different races, cultures, religions, etc. so better to see other's point of view. If people were willing to take the time to 'think' as other's do, would we have the world problems that we do? IOW: people aren't doing so well understanding other people, let alone other species!

Actually I have spent a good share of my life doing just that. I have lived overseas for many years in many different countries and the only way to succeed is to realize that other cultures have their own "Worldview" and see things differently than you do. You cannot carry your own cultural baggage around the world with you and expect to succeed either as a businessman or as a tourist.

[Pawz4me]

Dog Folks wrote:
4X4Dodger: The issues you mention are very true! Unfortunately the American public, wants instant results, with no effort and cheap!

More than once a potential client of my dog training classes would look at me and say:"You mean I have to work with the dog EVRY DAY?"

I told them it was only 15 minutes per day.

The person with the out of control dog would respond:"Never mind. That is too much work. I don't have the time for this. Do you train dogs without me?"

They want a well behaved dog, but are not willing to expend just a little effort to have one. Again, they want instant results.

Look at all the diet pills, etc. NO effort, instant results. TV Doctors are no better. If you just listen to them and use what they are pushing, they are going to save your life in 30 minutes!!

You said:" I am not against the idea of Dog experts at all I just really question the need for them. If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively."

Yes there would be no need IF we "took the time." That is the problem; We as a society, will NOT take the time, or make the effort. They are willing to pay to have "experts" do the work for them. Or buy the latest book or DVD that is full of false promises.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

Most people nowadays want the quick fix. They expect an easy, one dimensional answer. Life (including dogs and most other things) is very rarely simple or one dimensional! Thinking is required. Effort is required. Too many people seem to be afraid of both of those.

[Dog_Folks]

4X4Dodger: The issues you mention are very true! Unfortunately the American public, wants instant results, with no effort and cheap!

More than once a potential client of my dog training classes would look at me and say:"You mean I have to work with the dog EVRY DAY?"

I told them it was only 15 minutes per day.

The person with the out of control dog would respond:"Never mind. That is too much work. I don't have the time for this. Do you train dogs without me?"

They want a well behaved dog, but are not willing to expend just a little effort to have one. Again, they want instant results.

Look at all the diet pills, etc. NO effort, instant results. TV Doctors are no better. If you just listen to them and use what they are pushing, they are going to save your life in 30 minutes!!

You said:" I am not against the idea of Dog experts at all I just really question the need for them. If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively."

Yes there would be no need IF we "took the time." That is the problem; We as a society, will NOT take the time, or make the effort. They are willing to pay to have "experts" do the work for them. Or buy the latest book or DVD that is full of false promises.

[Go_Dogs]

' If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively.'

Okay. While you at it, try and think like all the different races, cultures, religions, etc. so better to see other's point of view. If people were willing to take the time to 'think' as other's do, would we have the world problems that we do? IOW: people aren't doing so well understanding other people, let alone other species!

[4X4Dodger]

Dog Folks wrote:
4X4Doger: Now there is some information we can agree upon!!!

Dog "experts" are measured by experience and results only. There are not many "degrees" because there not many mainstream colleges offering them. A degree has no indication of every day skills. I have a college degree that is mostly worthless in today's society.

There are some "certification" programs for dog trainers, mostly offered on line or by for profit "schools." I doubt their real value.

4X4Dodger said: "So I find it a bit curious that some have the attitude that somehow one persons ideas on dog behavior (sic) are automatically superior to mine or anyone elses(sic) for that matter."

Wow can't agree more, but that statement is true with many people, everywhere. It is very common on forums. "It is my way or you are wrong" seems to be a common attitude.

4X4Dodger said: "Don't we have enough DNA level experience by now and enough Common knowledge..lore (sic) if you like to suffice for managing this relationship?

Again, we agree IF there is common sense being used. Unfortunately common sense is not so common.

Dog trainers, house cleaners, and most service companies, exist not because people do not have the basic, or instinctive skills to complete the task at hand or the desire to gain the information needed. Rather, people choose, for whatever reason, to pay someone else to complete the task. And thankfully these people exist because that is how I made a very comfortable living my entire life. (Service businesses.)

Now don't get too comfortable. There are many other areas we still strongly disagree. :B :B That is O.K. and keeps life interesting.

Best of Luck to you.

We do agree on much for sure and I would like you and some of the others to consider this: There are literally hundreds of books on the market as well as TV shows that purport to have the "ONE SURFIRE" way to train your dog or break them of bad habits. Could many of those people with badly behaving dogs be reading and applying bad information to their relationship with their pets? And as I am sure you are aware things things seem to go in Fad cycles.

And to some others who questioned my assertion that we have a built in level of understanding with dogs. There are always exceptions and there will always be people who should not have a dog. But Dogs have been mistreated and mishandled by man through the ages and yet the relationship is still strong and THE most popular one when it comes to the choice for a pet WORLDWIDE. There is no doubt that there is a strong almost primal urge to this relationship.

I am not against the idea of Dog experts at all I just really question the need for them. If we all took the time to try to think like a dog and see the world thru their eyes we would be able to train them much more effectively.

And I do agree with some who criticized me up thread; Some people should just NOT have a dog, but there are many more I see that shouldnt have kids either. My heart breaks for both when I see these situations.

[Dog_Folks]

Yes, I read every word of your links.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let's just let it rest there.

I will take my "profound ignorance" of canine behavior and leave you now.

Good luck to you.

[Pawz4me]

Dog Folks wrote:
Sorry Pawz4me. Your first link discusses the theory that dogs broke off from wolves earlier than thought. Not that they were never part of the same evolutionary chain.

Yes. Exactly. I don't understand your problem with that? The point is that wolves are not dogs' direct ancestors. They separated so long ago that they have little in common. Wolf studies (erroneous or not) provide little to no useable information about dogs.

The writer is NOT a scientist per say, although she has a degree in Geology. She is a science writer. There were no references to where this information came from.

Did you even read it? The information came from the people quoted in the article. DNA experts from Harvard Medical School and Pennsylvania State University. You know, people who would be considered experts by most reasonable people.

Your second link is a BLOG for crying out loud. That is NOT science, no matter what they call their blog.

Again, I have to ask if you even read it? Do you understand who was quoted? Did you not see the links to the studies in scientific journals? To the books published? Did you bother to follow any of the links, read any of the studies?

You understand that articles are more than the author? That they are the people quoted, the sources listed? I guess by your standards none of us should ever believe any newspaper article ever. Because no matter who is quoted or what facts are cited, the person who wrote the article is just a journalist?

A snippet from your third link:"Finally, AVSAB points out that while aggression
between both domesticated and wild animals can be related to the desire to attain higher rank and thus priority access to resources, there
are many other causes. What do you call this? Not dominance?

Not dominance. Wanting a resource is not dominance. Even a dog who wants one resource rarely wants ALL the resources, as often seems to be what people who espouse dominance theory seem to believe.

When two dogs meet, and the aggression arises, and a fight begins, just what are you going to call it? What is the reason for this, if not dominance?

Well quite obviously I would either need to observe the incident or have much more information before being able to make a guess or conclusion as to what caused it! To believe that two dogs reacted to each other in an aggressive way so it obviously must be dominance would be displaying profound ignorance of canine behavior. There could be quite a few reasons. Dominance wouldn't make my top ten list of possibilities. The first thing I'd want to know is the sexes of the dogs involved and whether or not they were spayed or neutered. I'd want to know what the owners were doing at the time of the altercation. I'd need many details. I certainly would never make a simplistic assumption about dominance. The only people I know who would do that are the folks whose total knowledge of canine behavior consists of having watched a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer. To make such a simplistic assumption would IMO do a great disservice to dogs. They are much more sophisticated and nuanced than that.

[Go_Dogs]

The author's credentials are not valid, IMO.