Views on when to/not to allow a dog to be social

[Crowe]

In puppy kindergarten today the question came up as to whether or not dogs that meet on a hike, street, etc., should be allowed to always socialize. Our instructor kind of contradicted herself-when she is out hiking with her dogs and they meet up with another dog she does not allow them to interact. Her concern is are they vaccinated or are they aggressive. Her dogs DO go to the doggie day care at the training facility. But then in the next breath she says to take them anywhere and everywhere to get the socialized. We've always allowed our dogs to interact with whatever dog they meet UNLESS it's obviously aggressive or looks ill. Thoughts? I know there will be varying opinions so please, be polite. If you disagree with someone feel free to say so but explain why. Thanks.

[colliehauler]

LOL, I have Collies the Will Rogers of the dog world. To them strangers are friends they haven't met yet. My Collies get a lot of interaction in our travels. By the time Sawyer was 2.5 years he had been to 29 states. Very seldom do I travel without them. Sasha is a little more skittish and reserved. She waits for Sawyer to make first contact before she joins in. That said I'm kind of selective on what dogs I let them interact with.

[toedtoes]

OK. I agree with this. Yes, a dog can be INFLUENCED by the owner's traits. But how that materializes in the dog is dependent upon the individual dog. It's not a simple "nervous owner = nervous dog". It's not that a dog inherits the owner's personality or traits - it's that an individual dog will react to an individual owner's behavior/attitude.

But that reaction will be different dependent upon the individual dog's personality. And on the efforts of the owner to socialize and appropriately handle the dog.

A dog owner who fails to provide socialization, training, and security to a puppy will create a problem dog. But how that problem develops has less to do with the owner's personality and more to do with the dog's personality. An overbearing strong willed puppy is more likely to become aggressive than a timid eager to please puppy - regardless of whether the owner is timid or overbearing.

[Lantley]

toedtoes wrote:

Again, I disagree. Dogs can't "inherit" traits from their owners. They may feed off an emotion, but that has more to do with lack of trust and training than anything else.

Look at all the little yappy aggressive dogs owned by lazy people. The dog didn't "inherit" a lazy personality. Rather the dog was raised without structure and became hyper and aggressive.


I think we are saying the same thing. The difference is your point is the bad inherited behavior can be offset with proper training. I agree with you there.
However as you pointed out the dog may feed off emotion. Until someone stops feeding the dog these disruptive emotions the dogs continues to be influenced and behave according to the owners emotions/traits.
This training you speak of never happens for most dogs. The owners are generally umaware of their own questionable behavior they certainly don't see how their own traits influence the dog.
Those lazy prople you refer to, do not provide any additional training for the dog.
The dog simply lives their life feeding off the emotions of the owner. If the owners emotions are poor/questionable. Unless there is some sort of intervention/training, the dogs behavior will be poor/questionable.
In the long run unless the lazy owner hires a trainer the dog will only be as well socialized as the owner.

[toedtoes]

Crowe wrote:
And an aggressive or nervous dog can become a well adjusted dog with trust and understanding.

We have one such dog in my puppy kindergarten class. Thursday was our 4th meeting. The dog is finally calming down and becoming a good K-9 citizen. We all had doubts but the group and the trainer worked together to help her behave.

I love seeing that. For me, the ultimate was with the Best Friends' Vicktory Dogs. These were the dogs taken from Michael Vick. Watching them transform was just awe inspiring.

[toedtoes]

Lantley wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Interesting to me is that dogs are bound to adapt to the traits of the owner.
If the owner is nervous, the dog will be nervous. If the owner is agressive the dog will be aggressive. If the owner is laid back the dog will be laid back.
The owners personality will be an influence before any socialization even begins!

I disagree with that. I don't see like creates like in the personality of dogs.

An aggressive owner is just as likely to instill nervousness and fear into their dog as they are aggression. A nervous owner is just as likely to have an aggressive dog as a nervous one. And some dogs are well adjusted despite all the well meaning efforts of the owner.

IMO, creating a unbalanced dog has more to do with not understanding the breed/puppy, failure to build a strong bond of trust between owner and dog, and/or abuse or trauma.

And an aggressive or nervous dog can become a well adjusted dog with trust and understanding.

I agree and agressive or nervous dog can be retrained but the nervous, aggresive or high strung owner does not realize these traits within themselves. They often are not aware there nervousness is being tranfered to the dog.
If you remain calm and relaxed the dog will remain calm and relaxed.
If you are high strung and hyper the dog will inherit these traits.
The dog develops the owners attitude. This applies to socializing as well. The dog will be as well socialized as the owner.
If the owner is outgoing and friendly these traiits will be reflected in the dog. If the owner is not outgoing the dog is not going to be outgoing.
I understand the dogs start with their own traits and personalities, but from there the owner influences the dogs behavior with their own behavior

Again, I disagree. Dogs can't "inherit" traits from their owners. They may feed off an emotion, but that has more to do with lack of trust and training than anything else.

Look at all the little yappy aggressive dogs owned by lazy people. The dog didn't "inherit" a lazy personality. Rather the dog was raised without structure and became hyper and aggressive.

[Lantley]

toedtoes wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Interesting to me is that dogs are bound to adapt to the traits of the owner.
If the owner is nervous, the dog will be nervous. If the owner is agressive the dog will be aggressive. If the owner is laid back the dog will be laid back.
The owners personality will be an influence before any socialization even begins!

I disagree with that. I don't see like creates like in the personality of dogs.

An aggressive owner is just as likely to instill nervousness and fear into their dog as they are aggression. A nervous owner is just as likely to have an aggressive dog as a nervous one. And some dogs are well adjusted despite all the well meaning efforts of the owner.

IMO, creating a unbalanced dog has more to do with not understanding the breed/puppy, failure to build a strong bond of trust between owner and dog, and/or abuse or trauma.

And an aggressive or nervous dog can become a well adjusted dog with trust and understanding.

I agree and agressive or nervous dog can be retrained but the nervous, aggresive or high strung owner does not realize these traits within themselves. They often are not aware there nervousness is being tranfered to the dog.
If you remain calm and relaxed the dog will remain calm and relaxed.
If you are high strung and hyper the dog will inherit these traits.
The dog develops the owners attitude. This applies to socializing as well. The dog will be as well socialized as the owner.
If the owner is outgoing and friendly these traiits will be reflected in the dog. If the owner is not outgoing the dog is not going to be outgoing.
I understand the dogs start with their own traits and personalities, but from there the owner influences the dogs behavior with their own behavior

[Crowe]

And an aggressive or nervous dog can become a well adjusted dog with trust and understanding.

We have one such dog in my puppy kindergarten class. Thursday was our 4th meeting. The dog is finally calming down and becoming a good K-9 citizen. We all had doubts but the group and the trainer worked together to help her behave.

[toedtoes]

Lantley wrote:
Interesting to me is that dogs are bound to adapt to the traits of the owner.
If the owner is nervous, the dog will be nervous. If the owner is agressive the dog will be aggressive. If the owner is laid back the dog will be laid back.
The owners personality will be an influence before any socialization even begins!

I disagree with that. I don't see like creates like in the personality of dogs.

An aggressive owner is just as likely to instill nervousness and fear into their dog as they are aggression. A nervous owner is just as likely to have an aggressive dog as a nervous one. And some dogs are well adjusted despite all the well meaning efforts of the owner.

IMO, creating a unbalanced dog has more to do with not understanding the breed/puppy, failure to build a strong bond of trust between owner and dog, and/or abuse or trauma.

And an aggressive or nervous dog can become a well adjusted dog with trust and understanding.

[Lantley]

Interesting to me is that dogs are bound to adapt to the traits of the owner.
If the owner is nervous, the dog will be nervous. If the owner is agressive the dog will be aggressive. If the owner is laid back the dog will be laid back.
The owners personality will be an influence before any socialization even begins!

[Crowe]

Thanks, all. In some ways I still feel it's a little contradictory but I understand the parameters give. Big test today-we are taking him to the nature preserve near us for a walk. I am working on leash training but I'll be the first to say it's not going that great LOL! Probably fine for a 14 week old puppy but he needs lots of work. There will be people, other dogs, maybe horses and lots of smells. Add a pokey old springer to the mix and it should be lots of fun!

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

Conversely, a good, well-socialized older dog can remind a young dog of their "manners" better than any human can. I remember when Augie was about 6 months old and full of himself "fastest dog in the park" - he met Lady Quinn. A GORGEOUS blue merle Aussie about a year older than Augie - and he pestered her, poked her, barked at her....until she ran him down (effortlessly) and proceeded to "kill" him. This cycled a few times, until he finally realized he wasn't that fast/cool/fun; and he started treating her with kindly respect, at which point she began to play with him. That lesson stuck with him - he is pretty good about leaving elderly dogs (or ones with prickly temperments) alone. If a dog growls at him, he simply walks away to find someone more fun. That's a pretty valuable lesson, IMO.

He also makes a point to greet every human at the dog park - for a breed that can be somewhat standoffish - that's good socialization, too.

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

I'm probably a hypocrite, too? Owning a young Aussie (and being an Olde Pharte myself) means I can not adequately exercise 45-lb Augie when he must be constantly on a leash when we winter in FL. Therefore, we go to our local dog park several times each week - we tend to go in the late morning when there are fewer dogs. That being said - Augie is super-social, and simply wants to find a buddy to run with. His energy level tends to attract other herding breeds (who "get" him, as Mark points out) but pitbulls and "doodles" seem up for a good game of tag with a crazy dog, too. Ben, my 20 lb miniaussiedoodle, "identifies" as a large dog, and if the big-dog side of the park is a "friendly mix", I allow him to play there. If I see dogs with high prey drives, Ben goes in the small-dog side for a game of fetch.

But when we're out-and-about, I generally don't let them socialize unless it's a dog/owner we have experience with. The people who go to our dog park are "dog people" - their dogs are well-trained and socialized. The general public (even campers) - maybe not so much. I figure it's my job as dog mom to make sure my dogs don't have a scary experience.

I also have to add that last year, Ben picked up Bordetella at the dog park - apparently a variant that got past his yearly vaccination against that virus. It was mild and lasted about a week - but points out that socializing also carries risks if your dogs aren't FULLY vaccinated. (I also opt for dog flu vaccinations)

[BigfootBill]

Getting the puppy out into the big world isn't just about learning other dogs and interactions within the canine community, it is about other objects/sensations they haven't been exposed to and all of the different types of humans - tall, short, bearded, hat wearing. See the attached article that defines socialization.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/dont-panic-training-through-and-around-puppy-fear-periods/

[Campinghoss]

I have no problem with our large dog greeting other dogs and people. However as already stated I do a quick observation of the dog AND its owner. Then I always ask. I do not use those darn retractable leashes and always have a firm grip for a just in case. Our small dog is more introverted than Lucky and prefers to mind her own business. We respect that.