3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Red_Clay_Ramble]

Bought my ELM 3000 because of this thread.

[Guest]

Well maybe it won't surprise you to know that I'm a Metrologist.

Guy

RadioNeal wrote:
Wow Guy, You bring back fond memories of discussions about acoustics, decibels, Metrology, and human preception from my college days...
SNIP
Cheers!

[MrWizard]

team slacker

little brushes. like 1/4 inch wide

or big brushes like 2 inch's wide & 3/4 thick

you can open up an Onan or generac genset in the 4 to 6 k range and find the small brushes,,

all RV generator's car alternators have the field on the rotor, small brushes small current, and the stator power windings fixed on the inside of the case the heavy current hi-voltage 115/230 doesn't go thru any brushes

drill motors , and such tools, work the other way around,

they have the field on the inside of the motor case and and segment commutator leading to separate windings on the rotor/armature, the brushes supply power to a segment of the winding energizing it, the armature pulls toward the Field turning the shaft, and a different winding is powered and the process repeated

my generac genset with electronic voltage control via the Field current is not truly brush-less and neither is Onan or Kohler,

to build a totally brush-less genset would mean a magnet core rotor, possibly a laminated layer construction, that was magnetized before or during construction

high heat could cause the rotor to loose it's magnetic Field , rendering the genset useless , if left used for a number of years, it likely would not faction { the residual magnetism in the laminated rotor having dispersed

[RadioNeal]

Wow Guy, You bring back fond memories of discussions about acoustics, decibels, Metrology, and human preception from my college days...

Sound is one of the hardest things to measure.

The Bel is a measure of acustic energy. It is so large that it is not commonly used. Rather we the Decibel which is 1/10th of a Bel.

The Bel is a logarithmic measure of sound intensity or, more correctly acoustic pressure. Invented by the Bell telephone network in 1923 and named in honor of the inventor of the telephone, Alexander Graham Bell (1847-1922). If one sound is 1 bel louder than another, this means the louder sound is 10 times more intense than the fainter one. A difference of 2 bels corresponds to an increase of 10 x 10 or 100 times in intensity. The beginning of the scale, 0 bels, can be defined in various ways. Originally intended to represent the faintest sound that can be detected by a person who has good hearing. In practice, sound intensity is almost always stated in decibels. One bel is equal to approximately 1.151 293 nepers. The Decibel is a customary logarithmic measure most commonly used (in various ways) for measuring sound. The human ear is capable of detecting an enormous range of sound intensities. Furthermore, our perception is not linear. Experiment shows that when humans perceive one sound to be twice as loud as another, in fact the louder sound is about ten times as intense as the fainter one. For this reason, sound is measured on logarithmic scales. Informally, if one sound is 1 bel (10 decibels) "louder" than another, this means the louder sound is 10 times louder than the fainter one. A difference of 20 decibels corresponds to an increase of 10 x 10 or 100 times in intensity. The beginning of the scale, 0 decibels, can be set in different ways, depending on exactly which aspect of sound is being measured. For sound intensity (the power of the sound waves per unit of area) 0 decibels is equal 1 picowatt per square meter; this corresponds approximately to the faintest sound that can be detected by a person who has good hearing. A quiet room has a normal sound intensity of around 40 decibels, ten thousand times louder than the faintest perceptible sound, and a thunderclap may have an intensity of 120 decibels, a trillion times louder than the faintest sound. For sound pressure (the pressure exerted by the sound waves) 0 decibels equals 20 micropascals (µPa) RMS, and for sound power 0 decibels sometimes equals 1 picowatt. In all cases, one decibel equals about 0.115 129 neper and d decibels equal d(ln 10)/20 nepers.

In actual fact, we don't usually use Decibels, but rather a weighted scale known as DBA. DBA is sound measured the same as a Decibel, but with the high and low frequencies which the human ear doesn't detect well filtered out.

For those of you not familiar with the term, "Metrology" is the science of weights and measures. Throughout human history, we have strived to come up with ways to weigh and measure things. After all, you can't really know much about something until you can measure it.

Now, isn't all this clear as mud?

Okay, let's simplify things. Here are some common sounds, and their levels expressed in Decibels.

0 The softest sound a person can hear with normal hearing

10 normal breathing

20 whispering at 5 feet

30 soft whisper

50 rainfall

60 normal conversation

110 shouting in ear

120 thunder

Other actual things......

50 refrigerator

50 - 60 electric toothbrush

50 - 75 washing machine

50 - 75 air conditioner

50 - 80 electric shaver

55 coffee percolator

55 - 70 dishwasher

60 sewing machine

60 - 85 vacuum cleaner

60 - 95 hair dryer

65 - 80 alarm clock

70 TV audio

70 - 80 coffee grinder

70 - 95 garbage disposal

75 - 85 flush toilet

80 pop-up toaster

80 doorbell

80 ringing telephone

80 whistling kettle

80 - 90 food mixer or processor

80 - 90 blender

80 - 95 garbage disposal

95 - 110 motorcycle

100 snowmobile

110 baby crying

110 car horn

110 power saw

110 leafblower

120 chain saw, hammer on nail

120 pneumatic drills, heavy machine

120 jet plane (at ramp)

120 ambulance siren

125 chain saw

130 jackhammer, power drill

130 percussion section at symphony

140 airplane taking off

150 jet engine taking off

163 rifle

166 handgun

170 Shotgun

The above examples provided by The LeagueE For The Hard Of Hearing

The rest of the info in this post I took from various sources on the web as my memory isn't that good, and neither is my hearing.

Suffice to say that our preception of sound is very hard to quantify into numbers.

Cheers!

[padgett]

Still am not sure the Chinese are measuring their output the same way as dosmestic. Similar engines of similar displacement at the same rpm should produce about the same torque (which I am more interested in than HP) Have looked carefully at the Tecumseh and it is going to be a challenge to adapt a different muffler because while the Chinese motors have the exhaust port on the generator side of the engine, on the Tecumseh it is on the recoil side which means it and the intake are going to have to cross each other.

No big am just surprised that someone is not already making a flange/stub about 18 inches long. That plus a decent plenium should really quiet it particularly if designed so the reflections cancel - easy for a fixed speed engine. By a quick calculation about 7" should do it.

However Tecumseh has fitted their engine with an aluminum box about 6" square on a 3" manifold so every exhaust stroke reverbrates. Not much better than a stack.

There is no reason it should not be able to run as quietly as the other OHV engines of the same displacement just that was apparently not a design priority.

[TeamSlacker]

Sorry prof, you had the wrong impression before, I have the PowerWise3500 unit from CheckerAuto. I was just out in the garage and pulled the cap off the end of the generator and there IS a pair of rings and brushes, so my owners manual is correct the PowerWise unit is a brushed design. I could take pics if anyone needed proof, but i have nothing to gain or loose, I was just a curious buyer at the begining of this thread, and now just passing along any 1'st hand experience of the PowerWise unit that I can.

[Guest]

A couple points worth noting:
+ On the (logarithmic) dB scale for spl 10dB is a doubling of loudness. A 3dB difference is a change in loudness.
+ Paul Cole works for Champion (tech service, engineering--not sure) and is not a contributor to this forum--he was quoted in an earlier post. Perhaps he hasn't responded because he hasn't heard.
+ Most Honda generators are a brushed design--as is your car alternator. They last a long time & don't make arcing noise until quite worn.

Brushed designs are a bit more efficient than inductively coupled generators. Witness the difference in size of a 1 HP universal (brushed) motor on a power tool versus a 1HP inductive motor as on a tablesaw.

As to your last question: I WISH I could get my hands on one of these ELM3000's. There are none in Michigan. I definitely don't want the Coleman at Pep Boys. Maybe Costco will eventually get something cool.

Guy

professor95 wrote:
Yes, we have confirmed that the Powerwise 3500 is a Jiang Dong unit and is of brushless design. It is the Champion C46536 that is made by Tong Yong Ltd. and supposedly has brushes that was of concern. Checker's sells this unit as well as the Powerwise 3500. A contributor named Paul Cole provided some really helpful info on the Champion, but he has not returned to the form to respond to questions about the reported brush design of the alternator. We need more info on this unit. Perhaps TeamSlacker will know more after he takes his Champion apart (I hope you get it back together OK). Paul's initial comments on the Champion were very positive.

It would really be neat to know just how many folks have actually purchased one as a result of this forum!

[RadioNeal]

I didn't have much chance to play with the ELM3000 today, as it was raining here in Sunny South Florida for most of the day. I did, however, have a chance to take some sound level readings. I found the unit did check out at 66-67db at 23 feet, which is roughly 7 Meters as measured in the ELM3000 specs. I measured both at ground level and at ear level, width the unit operating on a concrete driveway. This should be worst-case as concrete will reflect sound. Keep in mind that my sound level meter hasn't been calibrated against a sound source traceble to the National Bureau of Standards, so might be off a little...

The muffler on the ELM3000 is quite large, and oval-shaped just like a automobile's muffler that shrunk in the wash. The muffler itself measures 10" by 8-1/4" by 5" Which is really quite large for a 6.5HP engine.

Subjectively, it seemed to my ears that the exhaust sound was ever so slightly less than the mechanical noise emanating from the engine itself. (Valve clatter, combustion chamber, Etc.)

China is a country where there are still many people who do not have electricity available from a utility company. Perhaps, since more people in China who purchase and use these generators use them daily in their everyday lives, they have been purpose-built with compactness and quiet operation as higher design priorities than would be the case with a generator designed for use in the construction trade.

Has anyone on here ever adapted an small automobile muffler to a Tecumsah or Briggs & Stratton engine? I would be very curious as to the result, and details of how the modification was accomplished.

I also own a Coleman Powermate 5500 11HP Generator, but it's so loud I hate to use it. I'm thinking it's time to void the warranty :W

Cheers,

[LittleBill]

i think i was prolly the first, from this post one guy had one before me, then i think professor you bought yours, so thats at least 3

[professor95]

Yes, we have confirmed that the Powerwise 3500 is a Jiang Dong unit and is of brushless design. It is the Champion C46536 that is made by Tong Yong Ltd. and supposedly has brushes that was of concern. Checker's sells this unit as well as the Powerwise 3500. A contributor named Paul Cole provided some really helpful info on the Champion, but he has not returned to the form to respond to questions about the reported brush design of the alternator. We need more info on this unit. Perhaps TeamSlacker will know more after he takes his Champion apart (I hope you get it back together OK). Paul's initial comments on the Champion were very positive.

I stopped by our local Pep-Boys this afternoon (East of Richmond, VA). All of the ELM3000 units were gone and only one Nikota remained. But, there was a full pallet of Coleman 3750 units sitting on the floor. This is not good news for those of you still looking for an ELM3000 from Pep Boys.

An interesting note I would like to pass along.... a friend of mine has a motorhome with an Onan genset on board. The exhaust comes out the right rear, under the coach. The measured dBA reading of the Onan on his rig logged in 3 dBA louder than my ELM3000. Remember, each 1 dBA increase is 26% and 3 dBA is a full 100% (double) more.

For those who are still calling these "2nd generation' Chinese imports loud construction generators, all I can say is you really need to find out what is going on first hand rather than listening to "hearsay" and repeating nonfactual statements. It is also interesting to note not one person writing to this forum that has purchased one of these units appears to be disappointed in sound levels, performance or overall construction quality. While admittedly not as quite as the Honda inverter units, they are very impressive little powerplants with numerous extra and desired features over conventional units like the Coleman Powermate for 1/3 the cost of a Honda. You simply cannot compare them to the Home Depot/Lowe's/Northern generators sold for emergency home back up power or construction use - they are an entirely different breed of generator. I personally have absolutely no interest in any one model or importer other than trying to help fellow RVers select a satisfactory generator. I certainly would not have gone as far as I have with supporting this forum if I believed the noise from these little gennys would ruin the solitude of the dry camps I will probably also visit this summer! In fact, my hope is that there will be fewer "noisy commercial generators" in the camps this year as a result of this forum.

Noting that there have been in excess of 11,000 visitors to this forum, we very well may have opened the flood gates on the current supply of Jiang Dong imports. It would really be neat to know just how many folks have actually purchased one as a result of this forum!

[RadioNeal]

I've not seen the PowerWise 3500, but these are the specs for the Eliminator ELM3000:

ELM3000
.3.0kW Four-Stroke Forced Air-Cooled Gasoline Generator Brushless •Frequency: 50Hz/60Hz
•Max AC output: 3.0KVA (60Hz) (27A @110v)
•Rated AC output: 2.8KVA (60Hz) (25A@110v)
•Engine type: forced air-cooled, 4-stroke, OHV
•Displacement: 196ml
•Max output: 6.5HP/3600rpm
•Fuel tank capacity: 15.0L (4Gallons)
•Continuous operating hours: 11.0h (60Hz)
•Ignition system: T.C.I •Starting system: recoil
•Operating noise level (7m): 67dB (A) (60Hz)
•With low oil shut off, fuel gauge
•Voltmeter, AC socket (plugs ends included)
•Product dimensions: 26.8” x 20” x 21.2” (610 x 430 x 435mm)
•Carton dimensions: 27.2” x 20.5” x 23.2” (690 x 520 x 590mm)
•Net weight: 104lbs (47kg)
•Gross weight: 108lbs •(48kg)

IMPORTANT:
One of the reasons Profesor95 pointed us to this particular generator was that its full power could be routed to the single 110 Volt outlet in order to feed an RV's power input. Many of these small Chinese generators are not set up this way, and can only supply half their wattage to one 110v socket. Big problem!

You really need to look at the schematic diagram to be sure. No store clerk is Likely to know this, and I'll bet most will just say "Yes" when asked if full power can be had out of one socket.

Cheers!

[DaveVa78Chiefta]

Rather than use a dogbone adaptor to connect my 30 amp RV plug to the ELM3000, I purchased a 30 amp RV pigtail (used for repairing 30 amp cables) from Campers World and wired it directly to the unused terminals on the rear of the 110VAC recepticle. I attached the pigtail to the frame of the ELM3000. Now all I do is plug in the RV cable to the 30 amp plug. The regular 110VAC sockets are still available when not using the generator to provide power to the RV. Just remember it not use both the regular 110VAC plugs and the RV plug at the same time to prevent overloading the generator.

Dave

[Fishreed]

Curly2001 wrote:
So, I hate to sound more stupid than I am but, what is the next best quiet loud generator to purchase if we can't find the ELIM3000? I called Pep Boys and the manager told me he orders five of those units each week and the warehouse is out of them and on backorder. They are getting a different type in now and he has one. I am going to the store to see what the db is on it. If it is in the range of 67dba, I may buy it. What is our other option?
Thanks in advance....Curly:)

Buy an Eliminator or like clone on on Ebay. They run between 300.00 and 400.00 shipped to your door and have a more than quiet 68db rating. Do not buy that other branded generator at PepBoys. I forget its name. IT has some sort of an electrical anomily that prevents it from generating more than 2200 watts. Check earlier posts in this thread for a more complete explanation by THE PROFESSOR.

[mkmathis]

I would look at the same generator made by Jiang Dong but called Powerwise 3500 at Kragens Auto Parts. It is rated at 65-68dba.

American Power Products 03800 Our Price: $299.00
3500 Watt Generator

Save time and shipping costs - order online and pickup free at your store!
Simply add the item to your cart, then choose a store near you during Checkout.


Product availability at stores near ZIP Code 85711:

Store information Distance In stock?

Checker Auto Parts #1424
4231 E 22Nd St , Tucson 1 miles No



Checker Auto Parts #1714
3740 E Grant Rd , Tucson 2 miles Yes



Checker Auto Parts #1108
2540 S Kolb Rd , Tucson 3 miles No



Checker Auto Parts #398
8360 E Broadway , Tucson 4 miles Yes



Checker Auto Parts #1400
1119 S 6Th Ave , Tucson 4 miles No



Distances shown are estimates only - your location may be further from the store than we estimate. Availability information is current as of 6:00 AM MST this morning.


www.kragen.com

[swankfamily5]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but there are a few Wildfire WF3500s on Ebay. Are these in the same ballpark as the ELMs, Champions, etc.?

I just looked at the two side by side online and they look identical. The Wildfire has 4 110v plug-ins and 1 220v plug-in, 2 circuit breakers, and a voltmeter. Any help would be appreciated.

The Mrs.