3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[pup]

Do you have a schematic that includes the breaker and the 120V outlet? Could you also lable the yellow wires in the picture you took to corespond on the schematic?

Also, where do you plan to mount the DPDT switch?

Thanks

Jason

[mjp750]

okay, as a full fledged newbie, the questions I have are:

1)does this stay as 120v, just doubling the available wattage and amps, or does this make it 240v served through a 120v plug? I'm betting (hoping) it's the former.

2) does this mean that both circuit breakers are being used to regulate the flow? Again, I'm betting (hoping) that is the case.

any input would be greatly appreciated.

[allpraisebob]

Sorry guys for the confusion... As I mentioned in my first post I do electronics for a living so it is easy for me to forget that what is common knowledge to me is not necessarily common knowledge to everyone else!

That said, cecilpwv is correct that the DPDT switch "throws" should be labeled 1 and 2, not A and B. However, unbeknownst to MAC-a-roni, the phasing assignment of 240V plugs with a neutral is arbitrary - that is to say, it doesn't matter if the brown wire from the generator head goes to X, as it does in the photograph, or Y, as I had it do in my explanation. Still, I should have made the two situations match each other! I hand-drew a schematic to help prevent any more confusion which is linked to below. Also, I saw today that Home Depot carries a properly-rated DPDT toggle switch in the electrical department, Gardner-Bender part number GSW-16. It's in the plugs, receptacles and switches section. Here's the schematic:



Finally, I took off the end cover on the generator head and saw that the white wire is spliced onto the red wire inside of the black plastic tubing. If your splice is anything like mine (such a small amount of solder that I was able to pull the wires apart!) then you'll definitely want to either do this mod or re-solder the connection as it is a fire waiting to happen.

[MAC-a-roni]

allpraisebob, you say in your writeup that the BROWN wire goes to the Y teminal on the twistlock outlet, but in the photograph, the BROWN wire is connected to the X terminal. Is this an error?

I have modified the wiring diagram to show the DPDT switch modification as outlined in allpraisebob's writeup. Once I get clear on the BROWN wire issue, I will post or make it available somewhere.

Cool!:B

[cecilpwv]

Wow, allpraisebob, that's exactly what I would like to do as well, but I'll follow your lead. I'm trying to understand how you intend to wire the DPDT switch. Please refer to http://www.doctronics.co.uk/images/4016_02.gif. Do the DPDT Common A and DPDT Common B references in your post correspond to Input A and Input B in my referenced link? If so, what do you mean by the having the "switch on A" and "flipping the switch to B". I am obviously misunderstanding your directions.

Also, thanks for the picture of the back of the panel. As I have not yet begun my "surgery", the photo gives me greater confidence that I will be handle the job. But as for the red and white wires being joined in the gen head, that scares me, although you say it's no big deal. Will you share a photo or two of this stage of the operation, please?

[rgraham]

Lots of info here way to much to read at one time, thanks guys

[n7bsn]

allpraisebob wrote:
..

* - if the dB levels seem high, remember that I measured them from the "standard" distance of 1 meter, not 21 feet or what have you. That said, this is still a very quiet generator compared to the usual Generac/Coleman unit.

Recall that, even though we usually reference (except in cases like the 21 ft used for generator noise) sound measurements to 1 meter, we usually test them at greater distances, to avoid "near field" conditions that would occur. ie lower frequency wave lengths are greater the 1 meter.

[n7bsn]

toprudder wrote:

FYI, every doubling of the distance equates to a reduction in 6dB of the noise level, provided there are not any effects due to reflections from nearby objects.

...which there certainly would be in moving from 1 meter to (roughly) 7 meters. You would introduce a boundy condition from the ground, so the sherical spreading that the 6dB for 2x assumes would no longer be exactly true.

But only for acoustic net-pickers like me

[allpraisebob]

allpraisebob wrote:
...
I will be re-wiring it so that I can select between full power output at 120V or the original half at 120V, half to full at 240V. This can be done with one suitably rated DPDT switch at the front panel, btw, as all four leads from the generator windings go up to it.
...

I just now noticed that, in fact, the Red and White leads are connected together in the generator head, so a wee bit more work will be required to perform this mod. No big deal, actually, but I just wanted to correct this mistake that I made in my earlier post!

[toprudder]

allpraisebob wrote:
* - if the dB levels seem high, remember that I measured them from the "standard" distance of 1 meter, not 21 feet or what have you. That said, this is still a very quiet generator compared to the usual Generac/Coleman unit.

FYI, every doubling of the distance equates to a reduction in 6dB of the noise level, provided there are not any effects due to reflections from nearby objects.

[allpraisebob]

NM_Desert_Rat,

I'll be rewiring my PP3500 today after I go get a suitably beefy DPDT toggle or rocker switch for it, which, btw, needs only to be rated for half of the maximum amperage as it only routes power from one of the genny's windings.

Here's a picture of the backside of the front panel and annotated the relevant connection points:



(Hope this worked right?!)

[NM_Desert_Rat]

allpraisebob,

I would be very interested in your results and seeing a drawing.

Thanks

Desert

[allpraisebob]

Greetings everyone! I joined here just so I could contribute a little bit back to this thread. I stumbled upon this site while researching "quieter" generators. Basically, I bought the Wen PowerPro from Pep Boys today on the advice of this thread. As I design and manufacture custom electronics for a living, I felt I could give a little back to a forum that saved me, oh, a thousand or so dollars! 🙂

First off, thanks especially to Professor95 and MrWizard, but also to all of the other contributors to this thread that chimed in with their observations, questions and answers.

I bought a Wen PowerPro from the Pep Boys on N. Florida Ave in Tampa this afternoon (Aug. 02) for $319.99 + tx strictly on the strength of this thread's discussion - after 88+ pages, what more could I possibly need to know before making a decision?!?! 🙂

The generator seemed much quieter to me than the typical Coleman or Generac open-cage generator, then I started it up and it wasn't as quiet, true, but still not bad. 😉 Got out the trusty Radio Shack digital sound meter and took A-weighted averaged readings from all four sides at 1m (39") at the mid-level of the unit. The loudest side was the front panel at 87dB; the quietest side, believe or not, was the muffler, at 82dB. The other two sides were 86dB.* These results indicate that this generator should benefit most from sound dampening along its long axis, which is good because covering up those sides won't affect the airflow required for cooling so much.

After confirming that the genny would start up my small room sized AC, I then shut it down to begin surgery on it. Namely, I will be re-wiring it so that I can select between full power output at 120V or the original half at 120V, half to full at 240V. This can be done with one suitably rated DPDT switch at the front panel, btw, as all four leads from the generator windings go up to it. I'll draw a schematic and append it/link to it as soon as I can if anyone is interested, but a basic description of how to make this mod follows:

The BROWN wire from the circuit breaker goes to the X terminal on the twistlock outlet, the HOT terminal on the 120V outlet and Pole A-2 on the DPDT switch.

The WHITE wire goes to Poles A-1 and B-2 on the DPDT switch, the Neutral terminals on the twistlock and 120V outlets.

Connect Pole B-1 of the DPDT switch to the Y terminal on the twistlock.

The RED wire goes to DPDT Common A.

The BLUE wire from the circuit breaker goes to DPDT Common B.

Et voila, with the switch on 1 the generator is wired "normally" - both phases feed the 240V twistlock outlet with their centertap as neutral, while the 120V outlet is fed by the Br/W phase only. Flip the switch to 2 and the R/Bu phase gets reversed and put in parallel with the Br/W phase, doubling the current available from the 120V outlet.

Of course, the 120V outlet isn't rated for 29A of current, but this power is also available across the X-N terminals of the twistlock, which IS rated for it.

WARNING - I haven't done this yet, myself, so if you intend to try it first please put insert a fuse betwen either BLUE or RED and the DPDT switch just in case the phasing implied in the schematic (PP3500.JPG) is incorrect!!!

* - if the dB levels seem high, remember that I measured them from the "standard" distance of 1 meter, not 21 feet or what have you. That said, this is still a very quiet generator compared to the usual Generac/Coleman unit.

I edited this post to improve it's clarity

[BurmaShave]

Team SLacker (and other buyers of eBay scooters)
There is no way your VIN number could have come back as a Yamaha legitimately. What is going on is, many of these sellers found out that no insurance company would touch their vehicles nor were they DOT legal, so they started using PHONY VIN NUMBERS which is perfectly legal on a 50cc moped.

As for these 'licensed' Honda, Yamaha engines - dont believe it. They are NOT licensed, they are look-alikes, not the same materials at all.
I had lengthy discussions with a few Chinese manuf. (Jiaming Motors, Jung etc) using a friend who speaks Chinese. Real eye-opener.

Having said that, the $ 700 scooters are a hoot. However they tend to eat up drive belts fast and replacements are hard to find.

[whs9841]

Has anyone looked into getting the Elim 3500 Storm Series instead of the ELM3000? On Ebay the 3500 is about $100 more expensive, but it has a lower sound rating (65 db v. 67 db), more wattage (3500 v. 3000), weighs less (97 lb. v. 108 lb.), and it has wheels and a handle. It has the same duplex 20 amp plugs that the ELM3000 has, but it looks like its 30 amp plug is a little different. Has anyone done any comparisons between these two and is there a technological difference that I'm not seeing?

Also, on the ELM3000, can you just plug straight into the 30 amp plug from your TT?

Thanks in advance.