3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Oldfordman]

Fiat48 wrote:
All this work and research you guys have done, I just had to join in.
About a year ago I was walking through a swap meet and saw one of these chinese generators. I chuckled at the time as a guy was going to start one as I walked by. Then I realized that thing was pretty quiet. I kept walking. I already had a generator. A Honda EM2500.

But then when I actually started using the Honda gen I kept complaining how loud it was. Thought Hondas were quieter than that. So I started searching for that generator the guys were selling at the swap meet. I never found them again.
So the search was on for a quieter generator. Inverter Honda, Kipor and whatever I could find. Prices were high...guess I would live with the noise.
Then I found you guys.
So I appreciate all the research and hard work youve done. Last night I sold the Honda.
Did some searching in Reno Nevada today and found the Champion at Kragen and also the UST at Pep Boys. $329 for either and they had them in stock. But I want electric start. So looks like I will probably go with the Gentron which (thanks to your education) has the JD engine. Or maybe I will hold out and see if Champion comes up with an electric start unit as a previous post indicated they might.
So you have all really helped me and for that I thank you.

The Manual Start Champion starts so easy I personnally see no need for the electric start. Just remember that the Generator starts out at 106 lbs. Add 4 gals of fuel (about 25#) a starter motor (3-5#) and a battery (15# and up). Thats a lot of weight to move around. For those that have shoulder problems (I too have torn a rotator cuff), just remember to pull the rope like you row a boat. Move the upper body rather than just arm movement.

[Fiat48]

All this work and research you guys have done, I just had to join in.
About a year ago I was walking through a swap meet and saw one of these chinese generators. I chuckled at the time as a guy was going to start one as I walked by. Then I realized that thing was pretty quiet. I kept walking. I already had a generator. A Honda EM2500.

But then when I actually started using the Honda gen I kept complaining how loud it was. Thought Hondas were quieter than that. So I started searching for that generator the guys were selling at the swap meet. I never found them again.
So the search was on for a quieter generator. Inverter Honda, Kipor and whatever I could find. Prices were high...guess I would live with the noise.
Then I found you guys.
So I appreciate all the research and hard work youve done. Last night I sold the Honda.
Did some searching in Reno Nevada today and found the Champion at Kragen and also the UST at Pep Boys. $329 for either and they had them in stock. But I want electric start. So looks like I will probably go with the Gentron which (thanks to your education) has the JD engine. Or maybe I will hold out and see if Champion comes up with an electric start unit as a previous post indicated they might.
So you have all really helped me and for that I thank you.

[MrWizard]

the adapter should do it..

there is schematic posted here somewhere and as i remember it, the unit has the 120-240 swtich and all power is available at the 120duplex, the dual adapter will share the load across the duplex

i've got the picture stored on my external backup drive, I don't have it here on the laptop. I'll do a look see for confirmation

[boucher1]

professsor95


I just got back from Costco in Montreal and found the Champion genset available for 399.00$ CDN. "Very good price"
The unit is C46535 CSA 2800W (4000W Peak) at
http://www.cpeauto.com/de2800_gen.htm

If I remember, there was a discussion on this unit this summer. There are 2 X 20 amps 120V outlets on the front.
Question:
Are there any problems getting (2800/120 = 23.3 amps) from one of the two outlets using a 15/30amps adapter?

I guest my real question is, can I get 23.3amps from one outlet?

Are there any modifications that have to be done to the wiring of this unit to get 23.3 Amps from one outlet?

Thanks

[professor95]

cmg3500 wrote:
asked this same question about 6-8 months ago,but no one knew,so here goes again.
I know the Honda 6.5 HP motor has a cast iron cylinder sleve,I was wondering if anyone took apart one of the Chinese clones,& knows if they have cast iron sleves also?I know there are a few different manufacturers,but they all look the same.The one I have is the Lifan engine on a Wen Power Pro 3500.

Check out the go cart racing forums for more info on the durability and physical similarities between the OEM Honda engines and the Chinese clones. I found both with cast iron sleeves. Biggest diff was at "race prep" power and RPM the clones were not as strong on lower end. Rods and cranks bit the dust on the clones. Don't let this bother you though, unless you want to run your generator at 7,000 rpm.

As for replacement parts, like the air filter cover. 95% of OEM Honda GX-200 parts are interchangeable with the clones. A Honda name part may be more expensive, but should be readily available at any Honda lawn mower shop.

Boy, I have not checked the forum for three days and all kinds of new postings and names have appeared. Much of what is being asked is currently buried in the past - but darn near impossible to find. Repeat questions are OK as members do cycle on and off the forum - sometimes the same questions bring out new ideas and answers. I did change the introduction posting from my original a few weeks back to encourage this - looks like it worked!

[NYer]

I am very happy to say my 4000watt homier generator runs awesome. I filled it with gas and oil and it started perfectly the first pull. I ran it about 15 minutes and then hooked it up to my camper. I ran my air condioner, a box fan, lights and the water pump all at the same time and it never sounded like it was struggling. I also tried the microwave while the box fan and camper fan were running and it worked fine. We also plugged in my parents camper at the same time and turned on their lights. I had it running about 3 hours and it worked flawlessly and used little fuel. I didn't think it was overly loud but I also don't have any other generator to compare it to. It was easily well worth $199, I should have bought a couple more. My parents and sister now want one.

[Accurate]

Re Gas Gauge:

Mine did the same thing. I noticed as I was fueling it for the first time that the
gauge wasn't moving at all, as I filled to the top the gage finally registered about half. And yes, there was gas in the gauge.

[P_J1]

rob85546 wrote:
I bought the champion and just started the generator 2to 3 times for a test and I noticed the gas guage is already messed up..reading half and its full...???hum??

When I first filled mine up it was still reading "E", I picked up one end of it (like less than 45* angle) and it popped up and reads fine now.
I did notice that gas can get all the way inside the gauge slide area, this is making me wonder how long it could last?

[rob85546]

I bought the champion and just started the generator 2to 3 times for a test and I noticed the gas guage is already messed up..reading half and its full...???hum??

[Wuttevr]

MrWizard wrote:
I would lke to see those pictures

I have been wondering about using 'dynamat' sound deading insulation on this project

a 6bd reduction is quite a bit, and sounds very worth while, bringing the genny very close to a honda UI in numbers, though the sound freq are probabilty different

Mr. Wizard,

The wife took the digital on a trip to Vegas, so I will be a few days on the pics. Frankly, I am a little embarrassed to show them.

As to Dynamat, I was a custom A/V mobile and home electronics designer/installer in a previous life. It is excellent stuff, but very pricey. A far less attractive, yet almost as effective alternative is asphalt shingles. Yep. They aren't adhesive backed, and they make a mess, but the sound dampening characteristics are very similar. At the very least they are a good test material prior to taking the plunge on the real stuff.

You are also VERY correct on sound level vs. frequency. Even if Honda or Yamaha db numbers could be acheived, the Champ will likely be far more offensive. That is where the Audio Control 1/3-Octave Sprectrum Analyzer was supposed to come in handy. But I lost my connection on that one.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments, encouragement, and food for thought. I will make quick with the pics.

P.S. I did try spraying the inside of all of the polystyrene with automotive undercoating (somewhat similar to Dynamat if you do numerous coats). But alas, I discovered another flaw in the poly-darn near everything but water melts it!!!

Regards,
Wuttever

[MrWizard]

I would lke to see those pictures

I have been wondering about using 'dynamat' sound deading insulation on this project

a 6bd reduction is quite a bit, and sounds very worth while, bringing the genny very close to a honda UI in numbers, though the sound freq are probabilty different

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Bob - [bobandcat] Take a look at Ken Lenger's ["klenger"] set up for
his on-board (5er) generator. Has pics & info. I'm sure you can
find it (or him) on the forums. Or at - [www.klenger.net]

I should add (on edit) - Ken's set-up is simple, doesn't
need a switch, and eliminates back-feed to/from the gen or
the power grid. [Price is right too!]
JC

[bobandcat]

professor95 wrote:
I guess you know that you will need a transfer switch if you wire the generator into the fiver. When you get to that point let me know and I will tell you how to make a mechanical transfer switch for about $100 less than a store bought one. An automatic or magnetic transfer switch will cost you big $$$$, but are more convenient. Sometimes I run across relays on the surplus market that will handle the switching load you need. Maybe we can find one of those if you want automatic switch over.

Professor95,

I'm back from my 3 month Alaskan odyssey. Had a great time there. The trip through Canada was just as great as the Alaskan portion. North America is such a beautiful place! However, its good to be home after 13,000 miles on the road.

Now my request. Can you guide me regarding the components needed and the installation of a transfer switch?

Thanks!!

[NYer]

I was able to get one of the Homier 4000w Generators today for only $199. Luckily my friend was able to go to the tool show 45 minutes early so he was the second one in. They only had 8 at that price and he said they sold immediately. I'm taking it to my camp tommorrow to test it out.

[Wuttevr]

Hey gang,

If you will recall, I posted a suggestion here about reducing the sound level of my Champ by enclosingthe existing framework in (as opposed to putting the whole generator in an enclosure) and cycling air through. You might also recall that I was turning it over to you innovators, as I hadn't the time.

Well, the fact that the Professor and Mr. Wizard didn't immediately 'pooh-pooh' the idea gave me renewed ambition. So I have some preliminary results to share with all of you.

I originally started with 1-inch polystyrene rigid insulation. I decided this was too thin and pried my wallet open for a whopping $5 worth of the same material in 2-inch thickness. I then cut out pieces and simply pressure fit them around the framework. The front and back were rather easy (I removed the muffler heat shield temporarily so as to be able to cover the back). On the fan side, I cut a hole for the fan, then glued a ring behind the baffle to make it fit tight around the fan shroud. Not satisfied with the results, I glued spacers (about 4" in height) all around the fan opening except on the bottom, and then covered. This directed the sound from the fan downward, and left the opening for air intake. Gee, maybe I should post some pictures, huh? On the Muffler side, I simply cut a hole for the exhaust, and a big hole above the muffler. If you will recall, I noticed earlier that the bulk of the air passing through exited right above the muffler. Mind you, this is all very crude, and immensely unattractive. But what prototype isn't?

I measured all 4 sides at exactly 21 feet with the genny in its original form as a control. I then did the same with all panels installed. The overall average is slightly better than a 6 db(a) reduction. I also measured a head temperature increase of 10 degrees (15 minutes run time, no load).

So there you have it. If you include the money I spent on the initial 1" material, I have about $8 into the whole thing. But there is plenty of room for improvement, and some additional problems yet left to solve.

First off, the polystyrene is a poor material. A couple of you are wondering if the muffler melted it. The answer is yes, somewhat (there is another solution to that problem). More importantly, this stuff doesn't trap sound waves. Since air is still blowing out, sound is coming with it. Some other
form of non-rigid insulation with trapping properties would be better suited.

I also have to take the fan-side baffle off to start it (get at fuel petcock, choke and pull cord). Not a huge deal, but still a pain.

The biggest issue is the muffler. Like I mentioned, I removed the heat shield so as to allow for the back to be covered. This is riddled with obvious problems. Again, the solution rests with the Honda. Their muffler is separated from the rest of the engine by insulated sheet metal. The air passing through the enclosure also exits from the same place. Having no sheet metal tools, and even less experience, here where you guys come in. I think a new heat shield could be fashioned that actually does the opposite of the existing one. It currently shields the gas tank and the outside of the muffler (so any unwitting passerby doesn't sizzle his knee on it. Although the heat shield still gets hot enough to cook a steak). I think it could be fashioned to still protect the gas tank above, yet also separate the muffler from the engine. It could also redirect the airflow out on the muffler side. Just imagine a louver in place of the existing heat shield. I think an elbow on the exhaust pipe to redirect it out this same opening would be wise as well. Then, the side that the exhaust currently exits out of could be completely covered. If you take a close look at a 3000i, this is their exact strategy. Incidentally, the tail pipe on the 3000 does a 180-degree bend downward inside this little compartment behind the louver. I am sure that simply "remoting" the muffler to outside the framework would be the easiest solution. But I would like to keep things compact.

I found this little project rather intriguing, and will probably continue messing with it well into the future. I can post some pics if anyone is interested. Disclaimer - it is ugly, really ugly. I also designed a very simply wheel/dolly setup specifically for it. I didn't like the permanence of
the wheel kit since it has to ride in my trailer. And Harbor Freight has some perfectly matched "Champion Yellow" casters to complete the look.

Best regards all,

Wuttevr