3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[yerlizard]

the low cost hour meter link. doesn't seem to work

[ButteBumBob]

The links don't work for me either.

[jpkiljan]

yerlizard wrote:
John, I can't that link to go anywhere, it cannot display it.
is there another link?
thanks,
Scott

Which link, Scott? The humorous Low-Cost Hour Meter or is it the IMSA portable generator grounding link? I just checked both and they came up right away. --John

[yerlizard]

John, I can't that link to go anywhere, it cannot display it.
is there another link?
thanks,
Scott

[MrWizard]

exactly

the chassis grounding is DONE thru the shore power GREEN ground wire, a poor connection on either end ( usually the campground pedestal )will create a poor/open grd of the RV frame

[jpkiljan]

AZJIM1 wrote:
How many of you are running hour meters on your gensets? I have been thinking of adding one to my new Champion (while it is still new) and have seen TinyTachs and SenDec models . . . anybody have any experience with these?

No experience here, but if the cost is too much and there is only one or two users, then consider this method I use on my generator . . .

CLICK HERE

8^)

--John

[edited to fix the image link problem]

[jpkiljan]

MrWizard wrote:
neutral on these generators is NOT bonded to grd, and that is the way it is supposed to be ,'NOT bonded" is corect

. . .

there are several other threads devoted to that topic

This was a good suggestion, MrWizard. I put something like "neutral bonding" into TrailerLife's SEARCH feature. I found a lot of opinions (sometimes conflicting ones), but the best was a link to a site run by IMSA on when to ground and when to bond a portable generator's neutral to its frame. It's fairly long, but it has some nice easy-to-understand illustrations, NEC references, and is well worth reading. Here is the site link

http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/marapr/ma5.htm

or, hopefully, you can click HERE.

Here is a short excerpt:

"Caution--Generator Neutral Grounding
Generators will often have the neutral conductor bonded to the generator frame. This is commonly done on small portable generators supplied with receptacles.

Larger generators with a cord supplied pin and sleeve connector typically do not have the neutral grounded to the frame. There is no industry standard for when the neutral is or is not grounded, however it seems to be dependent on the generator having receptacles mounted on the frame, as then the neutral is grounded to the generator frame. The generator user needs to know if the neutral is grounded or not.

If the generator neutral is grounded, then the generator can only be used with a transfer switch that transfers the neutral, or as a stand-alone generator for a carnival or special even, and then ground rods are required."

Until I read this IMSA Journal article, I had no idea that there were two kinds of transfer switches and that the most common ones don't switch the neutral. It also appears to explain why our Canadian friend (CCTAU) had the neutral and frame bonded on his generator (and tagged as such) when he bought it. I bought my (unbonded) PowerPro to provide emergency power to my cabin's well pump, as well as to my motor home. I'll certainly keep this in mind when I wire up a transfer switch to the pump.

IMSA is a public-service safety group. Apparently, its members often find themselves powering traffic signals and disaster sites with portable generators when there are widespread outages.

BTW, I checked my motor home and found that there is no electrical connections between the neutral and the MH chassis. This may explain why I sometimes feel a slight, but nevertheless unnerving, tingling sensation when (depending upon the local hookup) I grab the door handle while standing outside.

--John

[Wgeorge11]

AZJIM1 wrote:
How many of you are running hour meters on your gensets? I have been thinking of adding one to my new Champion (while it is still new) and have seen TinyTachs and SenDec models . . . anybody have any experience with these?

Hour Meter

Consider the Lascar. Requires a 5/16" hole and 3 or 4 wire hookup. I wired mine to the 12v bat output in less than an hour.

[AZJIM1]

It seems like the Flywheel/Fan silicone quieting fix might be something to do . . . does anybody know if it would void the warranty?

[AZJIM1]

How many of you are running hour meters on your gensets? I have been thinking of adding one to my new Champion (while it is still new) and have seen TinyTachs and SenDec models . . . anybody have any experience with these?

[MrWizard]

most motors have a stall current rating or on A/C compressors the call it a locked rotor rating

my A/C unit has a LR of 57 amps, and its going to take that 57amps at 120 volts for a few micro-seconds to get the motor/compressor to start spining

a 2hp air compressor could conciveably have a lock rating of 100amps, you are not going to get even a 50 amp surge from only one finding of your generator

so even if it poored all 25 amps into one winding, the voltage is going to go low, no way is it going to break the lock rotor amps to get the motor spinning
on only ONE winding

your buddys bigger gnerator was able to supply enough power to meet the locke rotor and get it spinning, try putting an amp meter around one wire the next time you do your tests, it hast to be ONE wire the neutral or the hot NOT around the ext cord

and yes, if i did not want to open the genny head, i would look around for a different generator

[yerlizard]

John, very good info on the tests. I've put about 20 hours on mine just messing around with it. Never fails to start on the first pull, unless you don't set the choke! For fun, I had my 26 cuft fridge, freezer, 32 inch tv, dvd player, pool pump, 20 inch tv pluuged into 2 12 gauge extension cords. Had them running off the generator for around 5 hours. Never missed a beat, even the crushed ice dispenser worked! I'm very pleased with it. Should work well in a power outage.

I plan on doing the mod CCTAU documented for the rv hookup. Great pics!


Scott

[2003Summit]

Thank you MrWizard, this is useful. Stick with me for bit here, first he superfluous info:

I did look at the plate on the motor but it had odd information, for example for HP it listed SPL or something. I do know this compressor will draw more and more current until it's happy. If you run it through too long of a cord it just keeps sucking the circut down till the breaker pops. I didnt see anything on the label on AMPS, but it must be on there. It was dim and dirty and late in the day, I will spend some time next week with a flash light and try to get better info. I *assumed* it's a 2HP motor because that's about as big as you can get on a 15A (ie 1700W) circut. It's a big motor with two big starting caps. The compressor is a RIGID w/6.2cuft/min at 90psi recovery. There is a decal on the compressor frame itself (not the motor) which says 3.25HP peak but who knows what that could mean.

But all this thinking about bogging the engine down. I looked it up, 6.5HP is about 4800W, so 4800W is going somewhere caused I sucked the this puppy into the ground. My buddy's 5000W gen can handle this load with only 2500W on one coil.

OK, so here is the question now, maybe the coil did only generate 2000W (half the max rating) even though the engine, capable of 4800W stalled out. Here's my thereoy on how, check me on this:

2000W might have been just shy of getting the compressor started. So the voltage in the gen would have gone down and the AVR kept asking the coils for "more more more" and indead 4800W and more was demanded of from the engine (stalling it). But where did all the power go if it didn't come out the plug?

If the coil windings were only capible of carring 17A (2000W at 120VAC) of current to the plug, the other 2800W must have gone into making heat in the generator windings, so the question is, do others feel this is what happened?

If so, then a parallel wired gen might have carried out more of the current to the plug (2x more) (ie less loss to heat) and probably have started and run the compressor. And the saw would have probably run stronger too. I know this all sounds like an obvious conclusion but I want to try to understand this so I can get the gen I need.

I think I got thrown off when the load stalled the gen even though I was using only 1 coil, I didn't think it would do that - so I started to wonder if the Canadian version had to be made to output the stated 2800W output. Perhaps a capacitor regulated gen might not have stalled out the engine under these conditions like an AVR version. It's interesting the breakers did not trip. If this is true, it would not take long to get the gen head pretty hot with 2800W of heat. Maybe they would have if I had ran it a bit longer.

So is my thinking sound? Should I search out a 6.5HP gen I can re-wire?

I will get more info on the compressor motor next week.

Thanks all.

MrWizard wrote:
if its 2800 watts, thats 1400 watts per each duplex or 11.6 amps

my memory says 1 hp is 740 watts, meaning your motor can do that much work, but not the specifics of how much input power it needs, it handle your saw, but your 2hp compressor needs a min 1480 running watts, with out power factor loss, and the start up load which could spike as high as 60 amps for a few milliseconds

what is rating on the spec plate and what is the power factor, of your SAW & compressor

and you are bogging the genny on the compressor because, you are trying to draw more power from the winding, kind of like locking one drive wheel of your car in vise then trying to drive away

not because the gas engine won't handle it.. now granted, with a full load of air on the compressor head the generator might not handle it even in parallel mode, but this is because of the surge current needed to start the compressor
6.5 hp = over 4000 watts out put from the gas engine,

[MrWizard]

if its 2800 watts, thats 1400 watts per each duplex or 11.6 amps

my memory says 1 hp is 740 watts, meaning your motor can do that much work, but not the specifics of how much input power it needs, it handle your saw, but your 2hp compressor needs a min 1480 running watts, with out power factor loss, and the start up load which could spike as high as 60 amps for a few milliseconds

what is rating on the spec plate and what is the power factor, of your SAW & compressor

and you are bogging the genny on the compressor because, you are trying to draw more power from the winding, kind of like locking one drive wheel of your car in vise then trying to drive away

not because the gas engine won't handle it.. now granted, with a full load of air on the compressor head the generator might not handle it even in parallel mode, but this is because of the surge current needed to start the compressor
6.5 hp = over 4000 watts out put from the gas engine,

[2003Summit]

A little follow up on this. This is the champ that I was "un-able" to do the re-wire on. I took my gen to work with me today, I have some high load power tools at work. I ran my 1hp table saw on it and it started fine. I ripped some wood, it does not have the same power as when plugged into house current but it is useable. Then I tried my 120VAC 2hp air compressor. The compressor started but could not get up to speed. It ran about half speed and the generator engine bogged down bad. If you allowed this to happen for 4 or 5 seconds it will stall the generator. In all honesty, the compressor is a nasty load, easily taking everything a normal 15A house breaker can handle.

However, this leads me to believe the generator is able to put out as much power as the engine could generate using only 1 of the 120VAC coils. Am I correct in concluding that even if I did have it re-wired I would not have run this load anyway? Or in the broader sense, it would not put out more power regardless of having two coils wired in parallel?

Perhaps those of you that have done more experimenting or are more knowledgeable with this stuff can please comment. I am still trying to decide if I should keep this unit or re-sell it. But if my assumption is correct, no gen with a 6.5HP engine would be able to put out more power anyway.

Also, for reference, my buddies 5000W 10HP Coleman generator can start and run this same compressor with just 1 coil (so he would have just 2500W available on one coil right? In theory…less than the 3400W you guys are getting with parallel wired coils).

I also note, FYI, the breakers in this CSA (ie. Canadian) unit are 20A sustained, 25A trip, and the wiring is 12GA throughout – I think this is different than the US versions I have been reading about.

Thanks guys

2003Summit wrote:
After reading all the wonderful, informative info on this thread I went out and confidently bought a 2800/4000W Champion from my local Costco Canada; having researched it carefully on this form. It seams to be the same one as I see in all of your pictures.

I was excited about re-wiring for maximum output on 120VAC but I think I have run into a major stumbling block. I don't think this unit can be re-wired. I will start from the beginning, hopefully someone has run in to this and has a work around. If not, then the Canadian versions are defiantly different and not possible to re-wire.

I took the cover off the generator head. The first thing I noticed was that neutral was bonded to ground inside the head with a short jumper wire – this was expected from the other posts and the sicker on the frame “ie. Warning: neutral bonded to frame”. I removed it, an ohm meter test confirmed no more link to ground.

Now, the coloring of the wires is a bit different from most of the posts. I have a red, black, and white wire going to the panel. That makes sense. My coil wires are as follows: red; blue; blue; black. The red coil wire is on a binding post with the red wire going to the panel, both blue coil wires are on the same binding post along with the white which goes to the panel, and the black coil wire on a post with the black to the panel. I also noted the red and black wire go together into one sleeve, and the two blues go together into another sleeve as they go into the windings. Because my wiring colors are different than the posts I have seen, I decided to do some careful testing to make sure I knew what was what.

I separated out (isolated) all four coil wires, one on each of the four binding posts and disconnected the panel wires completely for testing. I then measured resistance with a high quality digital multi meter. I got the following: Red to blue: 1 ohm, blue to blue: Zero ohm, blue to red: 1 ohm, red to black: 2 ohm. I’m already worried. From every post and schematic I have seen there should be no connection between the two coils. But I have very low resistance measured between each and every coil wire! Not good.

Well, hoping this could not be true I decided to start the gen up and place a moderate load on the various wires while measuring the voltage. If the coils where indeed separate, there shouldn’t be any way to support a load by connecting to only one pole of each coil and no way to get 220 without the coils linked. So I hooked up a 3A 120VAC sander (my test load) along with my DMM to measure voltage with two test leads. I can support the 3A load from red to *either* blue, and black to *either* blue. Meter shows 120V, sander starts strong and runs strong, the gen engine makes the same small grunt on each connection. I also briefly tested the sander from black to red, 220V, sander runs way too fast, gen makes a much bigger grunt. I get no sander operation on blue to blue. All of this was done with each of the four coil wires isolated from one-another.

This is not good, blue and blue seam obviously wired together “inside” the coil windings. Both my resistance test and load tests support this. This seams to indicate either a single coil with a center tap or the coils are connected in series somewhere *in* the windings. I looked very closely and I can see no way to change this with out splitting the gen open and re-wiring the actual windings – probably not a worth while project if even possible. I decided I should post on here and see if anyone has any ideas before I get too depressed about it; and if this all ends up being true to warn others about the Canadian version that Costco sells or maybe the Canadian verion peroid.

Here are some pics:

The gen:


Before re-wiring (note, ignore the loose brown wire, I was adding this wire to link up the panel, it is not stock):


The way it was when I was conducting my tests. Pannel wires are removed for testing, each of the four coil wires are issolated, that is they are each sitting alone on each of the four binding posts.



If you need any more info, please ask.

Hopefully someone has a work around or idea on this. If anyone else has a Canadian verision and wouldn't mind checking this; it could be usefull.

Thank you to all the tireless people that read and post on this thread.