3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

blkfe wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
My ears are to the ground. Can't wait until my new Electric start Duropower DP3500E arrives so that I may follow your lead if that will be ok. Built a new work bench for just this project. Hope to reach no more that 170 degrees in side the box and as low as 60/62 DbA/7

Floyd
O&S

Just need to know, why did you not order the Duropower which was already enclosed and has a db rating of 63 to start with?

Good question:

Duropower has several models in the 3500w class. The model you speak of is no doubt Model DP3500RES that is 63db. I believe this unit is quite special on sale @499.99. It has the enclosed case you mention. Also with a remote control. My purpose in ordering model DP3500E is to do some special work to lower the DbA to less than 60DbA and at the price of $329.99 This is a vary nice price for a Electric Start model.

Floyd
O&S

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
The above statement through's a wrench in my gears to place the fuel tank on top of my box. If I place this box on a carrier on the rear of my MH and this Texas sun heats the fuel in the tank to 140 degrees and someone comes close with a flame (cig. or lighter)the box could be a bomb. More and more Lou's beautiful box with the fuel tank undercover but separated from the genset (his new design coming out soon) may just take first prize. Professor, you do know how to hurt a guy. Got to start over with the present design on my bench. Do you have anymore surprise/s to be in the next post? Maybe should just wait for your propane retro post.

Floyd

Ps: Is there any problem with carrying a propane tank on a rear carrier?

Last question first. No more than carrying a propane tank on the front of a TT.

I did not mean to hurt you or throw a monkey wrench in the works. My intent was to create an awareness to help advert a potential disaster. While I am not referencing you, or anyone else I know on the forum with the following statement, some people are just plain old stupid. Common sense is anything but common. They will run gensets inside a closed garage, or even the house! Fill fuel tanks with a hot or running engine while hanging a lit cigarette between their lips. They also dump their RV black water tank barehanded, spill waste on the ground then walk in it, wipe the effluent from their hands on their pants, then pick their nose and offer to shake your hand. There is also the guy who is stupid enough to stick his little finger in a bandsaw :o. (I didn't mean to do it!)

Please allow me to give another example of a potentially dangerous situation with small gas tanks. My boat has three portable 6.5 gallon plastic gas tanks (Tempo brand). The tanks have a vent on the filler cap that can be closed for travel, or opened for operation. Like most folks, I like to fill the tanks to the brim. After all, when an outboard motor drinks fuel at a rate of approximately 6 MPG, you don't want to run out half way up the river!

If I "forget" and leave the vent closed, the tanks will literally blow up like a balloon on a hot day. Fuel will seep out and saturate the carpet in the back of the boat. Not a very good thing to happen.

Conversely, if I close the vent to trailer the boat home and forget to open the vent when I put it in its garage, the tanks will shrink up like a withered orange. Obviously, the expansion and contraction of the vapor in the tanks is pretty high.

All of the metal tanks on the Chinese gensets are vented. They have to be so that air can replace the space vacated by gasoline being drawn out of the tank. There is no way to seal the tank - and even if there were the internal pressures could rise high enough to blow by the float needle in the carb and spill gas from the float bowl.

Just be aware of all this and avoid filling the tank to the brim. When possible, shelter the tank from the sun or other high heat sources. Also be sure there is no closed space where vapors can collect and then be exposed to an ignition source. As an example, don't place a gas tank in a compartment next to or above your propane water heater, fridge or furnace. The more out in the open it is, the safer it will be.

Professor95:

Thanks, I'll sleep better tonight now that you put my mind at ease.
Maybe I will continue and finish the box I'm working on and then go to the next with the tank having a ventilated lid. More trial and error. How many time did Edison try and fail, to bring us the light bulb?

Floyd
O&S

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
The above statement through's a wrench in my gears to place the fuel tank on top of my box. If I place this box on a carrier on the rear of my MH and this Texas sun heats the fuel in the tank to 140 degrees and someone comes close with a flame (cig. or lighter)the box could be a bomb. More and more Lou's beautiful box with the fuel tank undercover but separated from the genset (his new design coming out soon) may just take first prize. Professor, you do know how to hurt a guy. Got to start over with the present design on my bench. Do you have anymore surprise/s to be in the next post? Maybe should just wait for your propane retro post.

Floyd

Ps: Is there any problem with carrying a propane tank on a rear carrier?

Last question first. No more than carrying a propane tank on the front of a TT.

I did not mean to hurt you or throw a monkey wrench in the works. My intent was to create an awareness to help advert a potential disaster. While I am not referencing you, or anyone else I know on the forum with the following statement, some people are just plain old stupid. Common sense is anything but common. They will run gensets inside a closed garage, or even the house! Fill fuel tanks with a hot or running engine while hanging a lit cigarette between their lips. They also dump their RV black water tank barehanded, spill waste on the ground then walk in it, wipe the effluent from their hands on their pants, then pick their nose and offer to shake your hand. There is also the guy who is stupid enough to stick his little finger in a bandsaw :o. (I didn't mean to do it!)

Please allow me to give another example of a potentially dangerous situation with small gas tanks. My boat has three portable 6.5 gallon plastic gas tanks (Tempo brand). The tanks have a vent on the filler cap that can be closed for travel, or opened for operation. Like most folks, I like to fill the tanks to the brim. After all, when an outboard motor drinks fuel at a rate of approximately 6 MPG, you don't want to run out half way up the river!

If I "forget" and leave the vent closed, the tanks will literally blow up like a balloon on a hot day. Fuel will seep out and saturate the carpet in the back of the boat. Not a very good thing to happen.

Conversely, if I close the vent to trailer the boat home and forget to open the vent when I put it in its garage, the tanks will shrink up like a withered orange. Obviously, the expansion and contraction of the vapor in the tanks is pretty high.

All of the metal tanks on the Chinese gensets are vented. They have to be so that air can replace the space vacated by gasoline being drawn out of the tank. There is no way to seal the tank - and even if there were the internal pressures could rise high enough to blow by the float needle in the carb and spill gas from the float bowl.

Just be aware of all this and avoid filling the tank to the brim. When possible, shelter the tank from the sun or other high heat sources. Also be sure there is no closed space where vapors can collect and then be exposed to an ignition source. As an example, don't place a gas tank in a compartment next to or above your propane water heater, fridge or furnace. The more out in the open it is, the safer it will be.

[blkfe]

Old & Slow wrote:
My ears are to the ground. Can't wait until my new Electric start Duropower DP3500E arrives so that I may follow your lead if that will be ok. Built a new work bench for just this project. Hope to reach no more that 170 degrees in side the box and as low as 60/62 DbA/7

Floyd
O&S

Just need to know, why did you not order the Duropower which was already enclosed and has a db rating of 63 to start with?

[professor95]

blulaker wrote:
I would like to ask you some questions about how to choose the correct genset for a 3 KW home back up unit (I know you talked about markings on the motor to show manufacture somewhere but I cant find it!). It seems like you guys have a favorite (JD?) manufacture from China and it is sold under many different names and outlets. I am a bit overwhelmed by all the info....if you could give me some guidance on what to look for on these units to ensure I get the one you guys feel is the best I would apreciate it.

Oh boy.... you sure know how to put a guy on the spot.

I could NOT even begin to tell you which brand is best. But, I can share that I am personally partial to Champion Power Equipment due to their practice of building and selling only under their own name, excellent tech support and warranty along with their positive response to the needs of the RV community. The 120 volt only units like my 40008, sold by UltraFab, and the new Home Depot models have the cleanest output of any Chinese genset I have had the pleasure to examine. I can't give you the technical reason (maybe Mr. Wizard can?) but these two models have an alternator that is wound differently from the others.

The WEN Power Pro sold by Pep Boys Auto is also an excellent, well built unit. Tech support and parts are a little harder to come by.

DuroPower carries a ton of different genset models. Check them out at their web site. Most any type and model is available on-line. They also have an extensive parts catalog on their web site. Negative comments about DuroPower have been minimal.

Jiang Dong perhaps builds more gensets under an assortment of labels than any other Chinese company. Look at the engine serial number. If it begins with the letter "J" stamped into the block (NOT dot matrix numbers) chances are it is a Jiang Dong unit.

BTW, I had the opportunity to spend a few hours with an Onan Homesite genset a few weeks ago. I liked the GFCI on the 120 volt outlet, but that was about all that impressed me more than other Chinese built brands. The engine serial number began with a "J", so Jiang Dong is a good possibility for the builder. There is no voltage selector switch, so the power is split between two outlets. I did not have a chance to "scope" the output. Funny thing, the owner did not realize he had bought a Chinese built genset. All he looked at was the emerald green color and the Onan name. He was kinda POed when he discovered he had paid $600 for pretty much the same thing he could have bought in a different color for half that amount.

Hope this helps. Just be reminded these are OPINIONS not necessarily facts. I guess you know the saying about opinions? Everyone has one just like an ............

[blulaker]

Thanks so much for all the great info on these Chinese gensets, it is amazing the work you all have done to provde this information! Professer, I would like to ask you some questions about how to choose the correct genset for a 3 KW home back up unit (I know you talked about markings on the motor to show manufacture somewhere but I cant find it!). It seems like you guys have a favorite (JD?) manufacture from China and it is sold under many different names and outlets. I am a bit overwhelmed by all the info....if you could give me some guidance on what to look for on these units to ensure I get the one you guys feel is the best I would apreciate it. Thanks again for all the info guys!

[Old___Slow]

sniped

Porfessor95 wrote:

If the gas in your tank is reaching 140 degrees F or higher, you can bet that it is rapidly vaporizing. Pressure will build and fumes can escape into the surrounding atmosphere. If they collect (they are heavier than air) in enough density and an ignition source comes along, you could have trouble.

The gas tank on your genset is NOT sealed like a modern automobile fuel system. It is an atmospherically vented system.

IMHO, I would exercise caution at those temps. Any thing you can do to keep the gas tank cooler would be smart.

Professor95

The above statement through's a wrench in my gears to place the fuel tank on top of my box. If I place this box on a carrier on the rear of my MH and this Texas sun heats the fuel in the tank to 140 degrees and someone comes close with a flame (cig. or lighter)the box could be a bomb. More and more Lou's beautiful box with the fuel tank undercover but separated from the genset (his new design coming out soon) may just take first prize. Professor, you do know how to hurt a guy. Got to start over with the present design on my bench. Do you have anymore surprise/s to be in the next post? Maybe should just wait for your propane retro post.

Floyd

Ps: Is there any problem with carrying a propane tank on a rear carrier?

[Broccoli1]

professor95 wrote:

Yep, liquid gasoline will not burn. You can actually throw a lit cigarette into a pail of gasoline and it will extinguish the cigarette. (Do not try this at home!)

better make sure that pail is FULL;)

[skyzoomer]

MrWizard wrote:

skyzoomer wrote:

bobandcat wrote:
The 'white stuff' on the threads is Teflon pipe thread sealing tape.

Never would have thought that plain old teflon pipe thread sealing tape could hold up under engine exhaust heat. Thanks and thanks to prof95 for sharing his tips too.
Skyzoomer

why not ?
as i recall the first 'wonder uses' of teflon was for cookware and IRON's

Never thought about teflon used on cookware or irons at the time. My first thought was that the extremely hot exhaust would just melt the teflon. On hind sight, all teflon cookware that I've seen warn against using on high heat to prevent damage. But if it works for bobandcat, then now I know.... :S

Thanks,
Skyzoomer

[TKMJ]

professor95 wrote:

On the flip side, some components in gasoline will actually begin to boil at 50 degrees C (120 degrees F, sea level, no pressure). This chacteristic once produced vapor lock in older carbureted engines.


IMHO, I would exercise caution at those temps. Any thing you can do to keep the gas tank cooler would be smart.

Professor95,
You are correct in your take on gasoline. Last year I lost the tail pipe on my class C. The pipe broke behind the front tank but ahead of the rear tank. When the pipe broke, I stopped and removed it and left it at the dumpster at the rest area. I didn't want to leave it on the side of the road. Because the muffler was still intact, I proceeded on my trip. When driving at night, we didn't have any fuel problems because of the cool nights. However during the day, the rear tank fuel lines would vaporlock because the exhaust heat would build up under the coach. The front tank would run just fine because the end of the pipe was behind the front tank. The reason I know this is because when I ran out of gas in the rear tank, (at 1/2 tank) I took a look under the coach to see if the tank valve failed or one of my fuel filters was plugged. I found the glass filter for the rear tank empty while the glass filter for the front tank was full. I also noted how hot the fuel lines were behind the exhaust. They were so hot, I could not touch them without a glove.

Ken

[MrWizard]

skyzoomer wrote:

bobandcat wrote:
The 'white stuff' on the threads is Teflon pipe thread sealing tape.

Never would have thought that plain old teflon pipe thread sealing tape could hold up under engine exhaust heat. Thanks and thanks to prof95 for sharing his tips too.

Skyzoomer

why not ?

as i recall the first 'wonder uses' of teflon was for cookware and IRON's

[skyzoomer]

professor95 wrote:

skyzoomer wrote:
PS: Now I wonder how hot the gas gets in the tank with an unmodified generator sitting in the sun? I know the solar heaters for our home can heat the water up to 140 degrees or so on a hot day. Is the gas tank acting as a solar heater? Maybe a roof on top of the frame would be a good thing to have even without a sound enclosure.

Darn good question.

I'm not sure I can completely answer it, we would most likely need the expertise of a Chemical Engineer.

But, this is what I believe I do know: ....snip

After further research on the web, I found this web site that says flat plate solar collectors (like used on residences) can reach temperatures of 70 degrees C, or 158 degrees F.

flat plate solar collectors

Seems like a roof over the gas tank would be a very good thing.
Skyzoomer

[LLeopold]

Which is why I have the blower motor and exhaust fans in my set up. This keeps the temps to 140 degrees F or less and vents the fumes before they can combust.

That said, you see my earlier post, I intend to isolate and vent the gas tank from the rest of the enclosure in phase II of my project.

EDIT: O&S, I like the idea of the PVC as a "support holder" for the gas line. That should resolve the gas line issue that I mentioned. I love the exchange of ideas that's going on here. -LL

[professor95]

skyzoomer wrote:
PS: Now I wonder how hot the gas gets in the tank with an unmodified generator sitting in the sun? I know the solar heaters for our home can heat the water up to 140 degrees or so on a hot day. Is the gas tank acting as a solar heater? Maybe a roof on top of the frame would be a good thing to have even without a sound enclosure.

Darn good question.

I'm not sure I can completely answer it, we would most likely need the expertise of a Chemical Engineer.

But, this is what I believe I do know:

Gasoline in liquid form is NOT flammable. Yep, liquid gasoline will not burn. You can actually throw a lit cigarette into a pail of gasoline and it will extinguish the cigarette. (Do not try this at home!) I know, I've seen some fools actually do it.

Gasoline must be atomized with oxygen (like fuel injection) or vaporized with oxygen to burn.

Gasoline will begin to vaporize at -43 degrees C. It would have to be darn cold for the "fumes" not to be present for ignition.

On the flip side, some components in gasoline will actually begin to boil at 50 degrees C (120 degrees F, sea level, no pressure). This chacteristic once produced vapor lock in older carbureted engines.

If the gas in your tank is reaching 140 degrees F or higher, you can bet that it is rapidly vaporizing. Pressure will build and fumes can escape into the surrounding atmosphere. If they collect (they are heavier than air) in enough density and an ignition source comes along, you could have trouble.

The gas tank on your genset is NOT sealed like a modern automobile fuel system. It is an atmospherically vented system.

IMHO, I would exercise caution at those temps. Any thing you can do to keep the gas tank cooler would be smart.

[Old___Slow]

My ears are to the ground. Can't wait until my new Electric start Duropower DP3500E arrives so that I may follow your lead if that will be ok. Built a new work bench for just this project. Hope to reach no more that 170 degrees in side the box and as low as 60/62 DbA/7

Floyd
O&S