3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[racefan1965]

With a few wenpower and duropower posts the last few days I thought a bump might be in order.


Rick

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:
I have no so called "bone" to pick with DuroPower.

I have no first hand experience with their products.

Nothing would please me more than to welcome them as a new, customer oriented supplier of available and durable Chinese built gensets at a value price.

Every time a new brand appears this forum has endeavored to investigate and evaluate both the company and product. The forum has become in many ways a Chinese Genset Consumer Testing and Report Group.

We have in the past two years identified companies and brands that one should use caution in dealing with.

The early Nikota was identified as less than satisfactory for RV use - a few weeks later it went bankrupt.

ELIM International, the company that got the ball rolling with the ELM3000, dropped the ball on customer service and warranty issues. They also changed to a new supplier and did not offer the full wattage to a single outlet. The forum identified the problems and it became buyer beware.

When Champion came on the scene their initial reviews were extremely low. They did not have a full power at 120 volt provision and used a questionable circuit breaker configuration. Ironically, Champion took note, changed their product and came on strong with customer service to the RV community.

Harbor Freight, Cummings and Homier all passed muster with their JD built 3,000 watt units. Warranty and service were acceptable, but sometimes slow.

PowerPro and PowerWise also made the top 5 list on the forum. But again, once the stores (PepBoys and COSTCO) were out of the warranty & service loop some issues developed.

UST was interesting. Little additional data has been collected. Same is true for the Big Lot's brand of a similar genset.

The Chinese built Onan 3,500 watt Homesite is as expected getting good reviews. Backed by the Onan/Cummings dealership network, warranty, parts and service should be top-notch. As noted, buyers are paing a higher price for the name and network.

Now DuroPower is on the scene. They have a really good web site with an extensive listing of different models available. They have a broad range of parts pictured on-line. Outward appearances make one believe they are a massive distributor with warehouses of gensets ready to ship. Feedback from folks on the forum is beginning to suggest a different picture about the company. The info is being shared because WE collectively make up the largest single support and evaluation group for Chinese gensets in the world. If we identify a good company and product, we need to share it so that others can benefit from our experiences. Same is true if we find one less than good.

That's what it is all about, guys. Their ain't no Chevy vs.
Ford or gas vs. diesel wars on this forum!

Professor95/Others:

Your desire to investigate the Chinese gensets being offered on the market has been a good one. Because of that desire, so much important information in now available on this thread. Like you state, it's been a great learning experience. The background you have in learning (PHD) and teaching 40 plus years in the field of Electronics and shared with all is so appreciated.

DuroPower:

I feel compelled to share what I know about buying this brand. The unit was ordered and delivered with no problems. It was delivered by FexEx with no damage. The unit was well packed from the factory. Testing began in a newly built (yellow, yet to have black trim for finish) Gen House. The DP3500EC was unpacked with no damage to the unit but a slight crack in the 12v battery caused a small leak. A Gas Generator Key Starter was ordered. The part was shipped the day it was ordered, just like the genset. When the part was opened, the part is not as described. Later, DP responded and offered a replacement. DuroPower (the mfg) offers many high end Gensets and a wide variety of Equipment. Yes, it is important to have CS, however, it is also to be taken into concideration, what is the orignal cost. The Cost of the DuroPower Electric Start was a prime factor in buying this brand. I may never need service in the one year period. My DP3500EC has proven to be excellent in all respects in shop testing. Someday perhaps it will be tested with my MH.

Champion:

At this time my MH is powered with the Champion C46540 with great success. IMHO, it should have never been placed in the factory genset compartment, even my owners manual states it should not be placed in a factory compartment. The manual also states the genset needs 2' of space all around. I have retro-fitted my compartment with simple slides and it can be pulled out and operated with near 2' of air space and that is ok by the manual. Also, the fuel tank has been relocated and not in the genset compartment. The main problem I find with the genset placed in the Factory Compartment is dirt from road travel covering genny. If operating the unit on the road, dirt and water would inter the genhead. My compartment is not designed for the Champion. My beloved little Yellow and Black genny must always be clean and beautiful to please it's owner, me. Professor95 has placed his Champion on a rear carrier and I plan to follow his lead perhaps someday.

Professor95, thanks for offering all your time and knowledge concerning 3000w Chinese gensets.

Floyd
O&S

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

RoadAce1 wrote:
I guess what I wanted to know after reading Consumer Reports is an honest wattage from the Champion. I know they did not test it but looking at others I'd say the consumer is not getting what they paid for although with my YG2800I I think I did

To revisit a statement I made sometime in the past few months; the wattage Champion gives is just as much an honest wattage as the horsepower on a new car, the amp hours of a new battery, the grams of fat in a candy bar, the mileage range of a GMRS or FRS walkie-talkie or your wife's weight. (Well, maybe leave the last one off the list.)

But, (and there is always a "but" statement) manufacturers tend to advertise their product's power capabilities when used under ideal conditions such as the perfect temperature, elevation, fuel, and mechanical condition.

We, on the other hand, use these products in the "real" world. This can be in the middle of a snow storm at 15 degrees F or on a desert outing at 105 degrees F. Some of us live near sea level (186 feet here) and others live at 6,000 feet or higher. These environmental differences have a major impact on a machine's performance capabilities.

I personally would trust CPE's power ratings as being reasonably accurate before I would many of the "other" Chinese built gensets with a lower quality alternator. From a power point of view, my Champion 40008 will run circles around my Jiung Dong built 3,000 watt ELM3000 with supposedly near identical engines. The JD will only start my 15K A/C if my fridge is on propane and all other appliances are off. My CPE genset easily starts my A/C with the fridge on electric and all the other "normal" AC stuff turned on.

Just be aware that if you are absolutely counting on 3,500 continuous watts under any and all conditions of operation that you will possibly be disappointed. IMHO, this is true of the majority of products currently available today.

This is what we need, the ACTUAL in use operation and what can be expected. I often read on other threads (RV.NET) of owners of the Honda 2000 running one 13,500 or 15,000btu A/C, this is comparable to your ELM3000. I know for sure my C46540 will operate my Coleman 13,500btu A/C and the Electric Fridge (12a) with no problem. I hope the little Champ. is not running like a race car, max'ed out and will need replacement soon.

[22geno]

What is the latest on the Boliy, havent purchased yet just waiting to see if anyone has had any problems. Will be leaving next spring so I have time before I get one.
Geno

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
But, (and there is always a "but" statement) manufacturers tend to advertise their product's power capabilities when used under ideal conditions such as the perfect temperature, elevation, fuel, and mechanical condition.

And, more importantly, a purely resistive load. The power factor of an air conditioner is not anywhere near perfect, especially when starting up.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

RoadAce1 wrote:
I guess what I wanted to know after reading Consumer Reports is an honest wattage from the Champion. I know they did not test it but looking at others I'd say the consumer is not getting what they paid for although with my YG2800I I think I did

To revisit a statement I made sometime in the past few months; the wattage Champion gives is just as much an honest wattage as the horsepower on a new car. (sniped)
Just be aware that if you are absolutely counting on 3,500 continuous watts under any and all conditions of operation that you will possibly be disappointed. IMHO, this is true of the majority of products currently available today.

IMHO, You are 100% correct, can't trust the numbers from mfg and products currently available today. Professor95, that was well said.

[professor95]

RoadAce1 wrote:
I guess what I wanted to know after reading Consumer Reports is an honest wattage from the Champion. I know they did not test it but looking at others I'd say the consumer is not getting what they paid for although with my YG2800I I think I did

To revisit a statement I made sometime in the past few months; the wattage Champion gives is just as much an honest wattage as the horsepower on a new car, the amp hours of a new battery, the grams of fat in a candy bar, the mileage range of a GMRS or FRS walkie-talkie or your wife's weight. (Well, maybe leave the last one off the list.)

But, (and there is always a "but" statement) manufacturers tend to advertise their product's power capabilities when used under ideal conditions such as the perfect temperature, elevation, fuel, and mechanical condition.

We, on the other hand, use these products in the "real" world. This can be in the middle of a snow storm at 15 degrees F or on a desert outing at 105 degrees F. Some of us live near sea level (186 feet here) and others live at 6,000 feet or higher. These environmental differences have a major impact on a machine's performance capabilities.

I personally would trust CPE's power ratings as being reasonably accurate before I would many of the "other" Chinese built gensets with a lower quality alternator. From a power point of view, my Champion 40008 will run circles around my Jiung Dong built 3,000 watt ELM3000 with supposedly near identical engines. The JD will only start my 15K A/C if my fridge is on propane and all other appliances are off. My CPE genset easily starts my A/C with the fridge on electric and all the other "normal" AC stuff turned on.

Just be aware that if you are absolutely counting on 3,500 continuous watts under any and all conditions of operation that you will possibly be disappointed. IMHO, this is true of the majority of products currently available today.

[RoadAce1]

I guess what I wanted to know after reading Consumer Reports is an honest wattage from the Champion. I know they did not test it but looking at others I'd say the consumer is not getting what they paid for although with my YG2800I I think I did.

[blkfe]

jconatser wrote:

RoadAce1 wrote:
...So for $300 if puts out at least 3000 running I might buy it for the home, what to you guys think?

It's marketed as producing 3500 running watts and 4000 surge, which means one probably shouldn't try to make it produce very much more than 3000 on a continuous basis. That's what I'm expecting from mine, at least.

I guess I look at things a little different. The Champion works well for my home back-up. When Power is out I don't need or expect to live with all 5 television's, all the lights, Washer, Dryer, ect......
I have wood heat and a well which works with the Champion. For everything else, I can wing it...so to speak.
As far as I am concerned, I like being "off grid"
Brad

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:

RoadAce1 wrote:
So for $300 if puts out atleast 3000 running I might buy it for the home, what to you guys think?

Lots of variables to consider. Major one is temperature. At 70 degrees F or below, 3,500 watts is a reasonable expectation. As the outside temps rise, your continious output (load) needs to drop to compensate. Another factor to consider when using the genst for home backup is intermittent start loads. You will have compressors on refrigerators or freezers starting and stopping, possibly well pumps when the potty flushes, sump pumps kicking in. One thing for sure, it is extremely doubtful you will have a continious load unless you plug in pure resistance items (heaters,for example) and just let them run. For home backup, reserve wattage is extremely important to take care of these items.

Personally, I would not count on a light duty genset to do much more as a power backup source for the home than keep a few lights and the TV on, maybe a gas or oil furnace and the fridge running.

Using my own home as an example, a 3500 Watt genset is inadequate to run the entire home in time of a power outage. A furnace, (2) refrigerators, two floors of lighting, (3) TV sets, Microwave, and Electric Range are just not possible with less than 13 KW.

What I have done for the last power outages is to just run a 10/3 SO cord extension I built to bring power into a 4 outlet box I place just inside a patio door. I run a #12 cord to the furnace (I have wired it so it is on a plug/receptical. Connection takes seconds). I have a cord that I can run to the microwave or refrigerator. Another for the TV and the last receptical outlet gets a CO detector.

I just plug in what I need to run at the time. Furnace until it cycles off and the house is warm. A refrigerator until it cycles off and the contents are cold. Microwave does the small heating tasks, a propane stove the HD heating requirements. The TV keeps us entertained. After dark I shut down the genset and go to bed. When I wake up I fuel and start the generator running the furnace first. I can also make coffee at the same time.

If you have a well pump and a pumped septic system, the Champion Generator is too small. Look for a 7KW at least.

Luckily we only have one or two outages a year and the longest will be for 24-36 hours and they hav all been wind-related so far. I consider them practice for the big earthquake that is predicted for out region.

[professor95]

RoadAce1 wrote:
So for $300 if puts out atleast 3000 running I might buy it for the home, what to you guys think?

Lots of variables to consider. Major one is temperature. At 70 degrees F or below, 3,500 watts is a reasonable expectation. As the outside temps rise, your continious output (load) needs to drop to compensate. Another factor to consider when using the genst for home backup is intermittent start loads. You will have compressors on refrigerators or freezers starting and stopping, possibly well pumps when the potty flushes, sump pumps kicking in. One thing for sure, it is extremely doubtful you will have a continious load unless you plug in pure resistance items (heaters,for example) and just let them run. For home backup, reserve wattage is extremely important to take care of these items.

Personally, I would not count on a light duty genset to do much more as a power backup source for the home than keep a few lights and the TV on, maybe a gas or oil furnace and the fridge running.

[JConatser]

RoadAce1 wrote:
...So for $300 if puts out at least 3000 running I might buy it for the home, what to you guys think?

It's marketed as producing 3500 running watts and 4000 surge, which means one probably shouldn't try to make it produce very much more than 3000 on a continuous basis. That's what I'm expecting from mine, at least.

[RoadAce1]

I have been doing some reserach on the Champion 3500/4000 trying to figure out what I can expect in continues real wattage. Right now I'm comparing it to my Yamaha YG2800I that we use for RV and home emergencies using a 6 breaker transfer from Conn electric. The Yamaha meets most of my needs but it dosen't have a four prong outlet and will only run ABC or DEF of my transfer switch but not both unless I tie two hots off the generator which I don't like to do. So for $300 if puts out atleast 3000 running I might buy it for the home, what to you guys think?

[skyzoomer]

Thanks folks for the advice to turn the C46540 off before switching.

Prof95,
Thanks for verifying and yes, I'm going to make a 220 volt extension cord to go from our solar water heater pump to the 220 volt outlet on the C46540. ... In case anyone installs a solar water heater in the future, it would be a good idea to run a 120 volt line to your water heater and install a 120 volt pump for the system. Then the pump could just be plugged into the 120 volt RV output without the hassle of having to switch to 220 volt mode like I'm going to have to do.

Thanks,
Skyzoomer

[JConatser]

skyzoomer wrote:
... is it OK to just flip the toggle switch on the C46540 while it is running or do I need to turn the engine off, toggle the switch, then restart the engine again? ...

A good rule of thumb to follow anytime you're dealing with electrical contacts is to try and make sure they make and/or break with no load present in order to eliminate (or at least, minimize) arcing and sparking between the contacts. I also agree with Mr. Wizard's advice regarding your scenario.