3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[blkfe]

I would like to add that I have a 1995 Westport 5th wheel with a 13,500 BTU AC. The Champion will not start my AC unless I have the circulating fan already running. It won't start the fan and compressor at the same time. I do not see this as a problem in any way. Even hooked to the Grid, the fan runs all the time so what's the difference? Once the compressor and fan are running, I can run my microwave as well. I am happy.
Brad

[Old___Slow]

martipr wrote:
Just a note of warning:
I just got a new DuroPower DP3500E RV genset. I would never run it in a camping area unless I were boondocking and no one was anywhere near. The DW says it will not be run if she is anywhere near.
It is supposed to be 3500 watts peak 3000 steady. When I turn on the AC (Carrier 1500 BTU rated at 14 amps/1700 watts it shudders, shakes and surges terrible. I would put it out by the barn for standby, but I don't have a barn.

martipr,

Just checking. The DuroPower DP3500EC come with three plugs worth about $40/$50, one is the L5-30r to be used on the 3 prong twist lock receptacle and you must set the 120/240 switch to 120v Also you need to use at least a flexible 8 GAGE 3 WIRE SETUP. THIS SHOULD GIVE YOU a minimum of 25a output and start your 15,000btu A/C with no problem.

[TubaPete]

Old & Slow wrote:


Now, your hard start problem is a common one. Many H/Y gennys have this same problem. It is a mystery to many on various threads why one person can run there A/C with no problem with the same genny when the next person CAN'T.

Floyd

I believe that the reson some have less problem than others in starting their A/C is that their A/C has a hard start capacitator, also discussed in many other threads. Some A/Cs come with them. They can be added after the fact to most of the others.

I have one of the ELIM 3000s discussed early on here. I had the hard start capacitator added to my A/C. The genset loads down when the A/C compressor kicks in but starts it OK.

[Old___Slow]

martipr,

Hi fellow Texan,

This is a open forum, I do believe, so I will say the following. As to the first, I own both a Champion C46540 (Professor95 states this forum is not only for Champion type folks) (I'm looking for the BLUE MAX folks also), back on subject and I own a DuroPower3500EC Electric Start. The NOISE from the Champion and the Duropower, by the meter, Champion 69 DbA @ 7m (21ft) and the Duropower 68 @ 7m (21ft) I too was ashamed to run the genny (Champion) within 300/400 feet of the next person. That is why I began the quest of a solution to quiet the little bugger. Build boxes I did. Many boxes. Still building Boxes. I think I have one now that will lower the Noise to around 50 DbA, the finishing touches are in progress. But, I also needed a genny for my HM factory genset compartment. This has recently been accomplished through the ideas from our Brad. First there was the problem of road muck covering the beautiful little Champion, then the radiant heat was a killer. Both of those's problems have been solved by Brad. Without this retro no forth coming Chinese genset will work successfully in a factory compartment. NONE.

Now, your hard start problem is a common one. Many H/Y gennys have this same problem. It is a mystery to many on various threads why one person can run there A/C with no problem with the same genny when the next person CAN'T. That is why others on this thread 'PROS' are trying to get to the bottom of this Peak load thing as stated on our gennys. Then it seems one A/C, same brand and BTU, will vary one to the other. This mystery is in the process of being investigated. Stay with us for possible answers.

Floyd

[martipr]

Just a note of warning:
I just got a new DuroPower DP3500E RV genset. I would never run it in a camping area unless I were boondocking and no one was anywhere near. The DW says it will not be run if she is anywhere near.
It is supposed to be 3500 watts peak 3000 steady. When I turn on the AC (Carrier 1500 BTU rated at 14 amps/1700 watts it shudders, shakes and surges terrible. I would put it out by the barn for standby, but I don't have a barn.

[blkfe]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

Just discovered something. I have a new (Christmas gift)CEN-TECH 95683 that has a Peak Hold button. Can it capture the vary quick peak of a compressor at startup?

If I can inject an opinion, it would be 'maybe', and I'd like to know this myself. I think these meters use analog-to-digital converters that take a finite amount of time to make a measurement, so the samples are made at intervals, and a fast peak could easily be missed. Also, an A-D converter without a 'sample and hold' front end can give highly bogus results if what it is measuring changes during the measurement interval. It's a moot point with my Sears clamp meter because the peak hold function works with voltage measurements only. Without knowing more, the only peak measurement I'd trust would be from a storage scope.

Maybe....I would like to find out for sure as well. It's kinda like allot of things in life...it's all in the timing. There has been much discussion on peak current and how it effects our generators and the appliances we choose to use with them. My attitude is if my genset starts my AC then the only thing I really would like to know is constant current draw. Peak current is irrelevant to me at this point because I already own my generator. Now...if I was having trouble starting a load, then I would be investigating more. That is, AFTER, I spent $20.00 on a hard start capacitor.

I would like to add that I have a number of the el-cheapo centech meters (one in every vehicle) and they all have been so close to my Fluke in readings that I have come to the conclusion they are fine for us non-professionals. Might not be around for years but do work fine.
I would, however, be willing to trade for a digital scope meter...my Tektronix is too big.:B

[mitt]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

Just discovered something. I have a new (Christmas gift)CEN-TECH 95683 that has a Peak Hold button. Can it capture the vary quick peak of a compressor at startup?

If I can inject an opinion, it would be 'maybe', and I'd like to know this myself. I think these meters use analog-to-digital converters that take a finite amount of time to make a measurement, so the samples are made at intervals, and a fast peak could easily be missed.

Like you said, what is the definition of peak? Peak as in the highest single data point reading on a 100MHz scope, or the highest reading over 1ms that a $30 meter will capture.

For a portable generator, I think it probably doesn't care about peaks that are one data point on a scope accuracy.

I think it cares about the approximate peak of first 8ms of sine wave. Even if the DMM takes 1ms to capture a reading, it should capture a value close to peak, since near the crest, the values do are not change very quickly.

Also, when a generator mfg states starting watts, what are they actually reporting? Instantaneous, average peak, rms peak, etc?

mitt

[trumptman88]

fourwinds29Q wrote:
Yea these people were clapping from the other side of the campground. We were camping with other units running quieter units. All I could say was "Sorry".

YouTube-Yamaha

I still would have clapped for the quieter generators as well. I say this as someone who tent camped in Madison at Yellowstone this summer. I don't care what brand it is, compared to nature, it is intrusive. The video above shows the attitude I have often encountered with the quieter generators. It amounts to, I'm 16% less intrusive so I'll run it 50% (or more)longer.

The day I bought my Champion was because it was mid-August and the electric power had gone out in the campground due to a transformer overheating. I ran it 10 hours the first day to keep the trailer and family cool. If I feel it will be obtrusive in a certain setting I don't run it and wouldn't at 58 dbs either.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

bad post deleted

[Wayne_Dohnal]

Just discovered something. I have a new (Christmas gift)CEN-TECH 95683 that has a Peak Hold button. Can it capture the vary quick peak of a compressor at startup?

If I can inject an opinion, it would be 'maybe', and I'd like to know this myself. I think these meters use analog-to-digital converters that take a finite amount of time to make a measurement, so the samples are made at intervals, and a fast peak could easily be missed. Also, an A-D converter without a 'sample and hold' front end can give highly bogus results if what it is measuring changes during the measurement interval. It's a moot point with my Sears clamp meter because the peak hold function works with voltage measurements only. Without knowing more, the only peak measurement I'd trust would be from a storage scope.

[mitt]

O&S,

That clamp meter should do the same thing as I mentioned above. Yes, you push the peak button, then turn on the compressor.

If the compressor has a regular plug and cord on it, you can use a line splitter to separate the wires, and take your reading on just 1 wire:


If you put the clamp meter around the whole cord, it should measure zero amps, becuase all the current going into the compressor on the load wire will exit the compressor on the neutral wire, thus why you need to separate wires somehow and measure just one.

Again, the accuracey will not be perfect, but it should give you a good idea for how much current is needed at startup.

mitt

[Old___Slow]

mitt,

Just discovered something. I have a new (Christmas gift)CEN-TECH 95683 that has a Peak Hold button. Can it capture the vary quick peak of a compressor at startup? When do you push the button, before the startup of the compressor? Many things can be discovered through sharing and inter-acting with each other on this forum. When open discussion is in use in truthfulness and kindness.

Thanks mitt,

Floyd

[mitt]

Old & Slow wrote:
Professor95;

Please tell us if you will, is there a instrument available on the market that would be affordable to us folks with shallow pockets, that can measure and hold a PEAK wattage draw? We do have a right to know some real FACTS about what we buy with the Champion name. Do they just pull numbers out of a hat?

I am still disturbed about all the numbers Champion gives on various models (which you say all have the same genhead) in Bloody Bold print on their gennys.

If you will please leave a link to a Peak and hold meter.

Floyd
O&S

Not prof here, but the cheapest method I have seen is a clamp current meter sears sells, that can hold max reading. I do not know how accurate a meter can be for $30 to $40, but it may be good enough. If you use a line splitter, or an extension cord like I showed a couple pages back, you should be able to measure peak current, then multiple by 120V to get a rough idea on peak watts.

price
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03482372000P

manual
http://www.metersupport.com/pages/82372.html



mitt

[Old___Slow]

Professor95;

Please tell us if you will, is there a instrument available on the market that would be affordable to us folks with shallow pockets, that can measure and hold a PEAK wattage draw? We do have a right to know some real FACTS about what we buy with the Champion name. Do they just pull numbers out of a hat?

I am still disturbed about all the numbers Champion gives on various models (which you say all have the same genhead) in Bloody Bold print on their gennys.

If you will please leave a link to a Peak and hold meter.

Floyd
O&S

[limerick001]

Hi All,

(Newbie, to this discussion board), Ron here. Been readin all 500
plus pages over the last few months, been achin to get on here
to post. With all the discussions of Honda 'clones', I've become
rather sold on the Champion brand. I don't have an RV but I do need
one to run a 120v MIG welder in my work, so a full head of
30 amp steam at 120v is what I need. Otherwise, the 3500 is
real nice as it's pretty quiet for what it is... Of course the
bigger engines are louder (15 or so horsepower for the C41365 model),
the one that I have chosen, but it's not as loud as the "Contractor"
models that are north of 76dB.. yikes! Funny, Kragen Auto has the
SKU in their system for it with a price of $974 (ouch!) but they
can't order it for some dumb reason.. so by some dumb luck, I called
Champion tech support one day and got this outfit on the east coast
on the phone, and am working on a much better deal pricewise. We
shall see what it goes for. I'm not saying what I might get it for,
but shootin for about 1/2 to 2/3 of that amount.