3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[N9WOS]

Lets get back to basics.:B
Don’t try to over engineer things.

Why do you need a latching switch? :h

Just use a SPST toggle switch at the control position that turns the relay coil on, or off.

And don’t worry about 12V power to the coil being interrupted. If the 12V fails, then you got a short, or open that you need to worry about before you worry about running anything.:R

We ain’t building a multibillion dollar power control room to the NASA control center that has to stay in it’s last operating mode if control is severed! :B


As I always say, Keep It Simple Stupid :R

Now I could use a few of those 807’s 😄

[professor95]

blkfe wrote:
That remote transfer switch is awesome. It gives new meaning to the word
"electromechanical" Way cool
Brad

Thanks Brad. Just wait until you see what one can do on their RV with a '70s era bent cam timer and some small surplus pneumatic double-acting cylinders connected to the RV water pump via a solenoid controlled two way valve. Shucks, you could set up a program to open and close the door on your generator compartment to be sure it stays cool. Of course, a PLC could do the same thing - but it is not as sexy.

[professor95]

N9WOS wrote:
Something tells me that it may have been just a little simpler to use a 12V DPDT relay.

Unless the relay was latching, one would need to build a circuit to accomplish the latch and hold. Also, the relay would need to remain energized in one position if it were not mechanically latching, meaning if power to the relay was lost it would revert to the spring state.

You may have a junque box full of them, but latching relays with a 12 VDC coil and contacts rated for a minimum of 20 amps inductive are sort of scarce around here.

Being a Ham, you should understand the true meaning of the term "Homebrew" and repurposing. You don't always do the simplest thing, you do the one that you can accomplish with what you have on hand. BTW, I have some 807's and 5U4's I'm tying to figure out how to use in the RV. So far, the only thing I can think of is a neat table lamp base. Of course, it would be easier to just go out and buy a new table lamp. :W

[Old___Slow]

Guess Old & Slow will have to find talent in the field of 'electromechanical" in the next life. I got left out on this go around. Simple folks need simple ways. Glad to know folks like you all. Keeps me looking up.

Floyd

[N9WOS]

:E

Something tells me that it may have been just a little simpler to use a 12V DPDT relay. :B

[blkfe]

That remote transfer switch is awesome. It gives new meaning to the word
"electromechanical" Way cool:C
Brad

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
I have decided to add a 12vdc to 110v ac inverter to my current Champion genset. This will give me 3 power choices: generator, inverter or shore power.
In order to not overload an outlet on the inverter, I intend to connect 2 outlets together, dogbone style. Here is my question to the electrical experts. Are all of the outlets on an inverter (probably a Cobra CPI2550) the same phase or is there a phase shift similar to our generator head? My gut feel is 'no', but, I would like to get some more input.

I haven't bought the inverter yet, so I can't take it apart to check its wiring. As you can see in the schematic, I am using a 4 pole double throw toggle switch to transfer from generator to inverter. I also have an automatic transfer switch that switches from shore power to generator/inverter power.

Bob,

Just sitting here in my Lazy Boy recliner watching the Super Bowl with my laptop.

If you can't find out if the two outlets are in phase or not from Cobra, I suggest you use a dual trace scope and simultaneously look at both. I did encounter a 2500 watt AC Delco branded unit last summer that actually was two smaller units in one box that did not sync the outlets.

You probably do not need to tie the two outlets together, just use a 20 amp rated cap (plug) on #12 cable. Also keep in mind 2500 watts from an inverter translates to 25,000+ watts (200+ amps) from your battery(s). If you use the inverter for any length of time at that power level, you had better have a darn good battery bank!

I have done something similar to what you are proposing. I have a 1,500 watt inverter. It is feed by two AGM batteries, which are connected to 24 square feet of solar panels on the roof of the RV. I also have the Champion 40008, which is electric start.

Inside the RV I have a control pannel that will start or stop the genny, turn on or off the inverter and switch power sources. This way I do not have to go outside (in the rain?) to move plugs around when we are dry camping.

I selected two 20 amp rated specification grade 3-way light switches. As you probably know, these are just single pole, double throw switches. One switch handles neutral, the other hot. This keeps the neutral isolated.



There are holes drilled in the switch handles and a cross bolt connects a 12 volt automotive door lock actuator. Flip-flopping polarity to the actuator will move it in or out, remotely selecting the inverter or genny. The switch board is not weather proof, thus needs a cover if it is wet. I plug the 30 amp camper power cord into the socket on the board, run the black cord to the genny and the yellow one to the inverter. Cheap, safe, remote controlled transfer switch that works great!

[professor95]

skyzoomer wrote:
Prof95,

Thanks much for actually testing this and sharing your "time and work" with us as always.

Would units like a flat screen or computer on the output of an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) be safe from an overvoltage that the MOV does not protect against? Or would the UPS fail and just carry the overvoltage to the units?

Thanks,
Skyzoomer

There is a lot here I do not know. Therefore, I will stick to what I believe I do know.

I do not believe that new digital LCD or Plasma TV sets are any more prone to damage by an inconsistent electrical supply that older analog TV's. But, when we sink a couple of grand into a new 52" plasma set we become more concerned than we did with the older analog sets we could buy for a saw-buck or two.

My system is unique (free). I was fortunate enough to have an APC 1,000 UPS given to me by a friend when the OEM batteries died. I pulled the DC wires out the back, placed it on a shelf in my basement, connected two 12 volt batteries and plugged my plasma TV into the UPS via an extension cord. Just for good measure, I added a surplus Leviton Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor that was part of a discarded server. Based on APC’s product literature and my testing, I have come to believe it is an extremely effective method of protecting the TV from power irregularities. It should not pass on a spike or surge. I do not know if this is true for all UPS units built by someone other than APC. If one were to go out and purchase the APC UPS and Leviton unit new, it might be somewhat expensive.

Secondary to that, and still to be accomplished, is a good arrestor system for the dish, cable and antenna coaxial feeds. I will accomplish that before the Spring/Summer thunderstorms arrive.

Just to make the reply legal for the forum, the system also protects from a malfunction from my Chinese power back-up generator. Well, it would if the Chinese generator was friendly to the UPS, which it is not.

Just extra insurance…. sort of like an umbrella policy.

[toprudder]

N9WOS wrote:
...The only use the lighter plug would be is with a 12V incandescent light, or with a lighter cord with a set of battery clips on the other end for charging a battery

Good point. But, be careful when charging batteries, as the output is unregulated. Once the battery reaches a charged status, disconnect or it could overcharge. I had that happen with a battery connected to the 12v output of a generator.

Bob R.

[Old___Slow]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
Is the MOV in the common power strip to be trusted for any possible over voltage with a AVR failure? And if you might tell use, is this the best method to protect our LCD HDTV's?

If I may butt in with an opinion, a MOV isn't a good choice for this type of failure. It is intended more for short, high-voltage spikes, and not for a sustained over-voltage situation. A Wikipedia article says it well: "Some consumers assume that a MOV inside a TVSS device provides equipment with complete power protection. Unfortunately, a MOV device and other types of surge suppressors provide no protection for the connected equipment from sustained over-voltages that may result in damage to that equipment as well as to the protector device. A potential fire hazard also exists."

For long-term (greater than a few milliseconds)under and over voltage protection a power monitor/protector device is needed. I believe Progressive Industries has one, some or all of the 'Surge Guard' brand devices provide this, as do some inverters with automatic transfer switches (Prosine 2.0 for example). Some of these devices have MOVs built in, and some don't. For the very best protection you need the power protector function and the spike suppression provided by the MOVs. With a failed AVR I suspect the MOVs may not be needed, but don't know this for sure.

Thanks Wayne for your input. This might be of interest. It was mentioned in a previous post that it might be possible to capture the peak of a A/C compressor cycling. Yesterday I used my CEN-TECH 95683 Digital Clamp Meter. The genset was a DP3500EC. The batteries were low so it pretty sure the converter/batt chg'er was on full output. I turned on the 13,500 btu A/C on high cool. The electric (comp type) fridge was in operation. I push the peak hold button in and low and behold it hit at one point 62.9 amps. Is perhaps the peak understated on this unit. This is all crazy to me. I took a photo of the reading. Maybe someone with more knowledge of power generation can comment. I assume the peak was for a m/second. No breakers were opened. The genny only had a slight lag. Then to top this off I turned on the MW, no problem. The running amps with the converter, the A/C and electric fridge was 16.9a

This post might be kinda convoluted. On another note, wonder what are the components of the control panel (mother board) on a genset like the ONAN. My old ONAN had a AVR with the control panel. No wonder the inverters are coming.

At this time I'm happy with my two 3500w Chinese gennys.

Floyd

[ol_Bombero-JC]

PETE BEALE wrote:
o well just a thought..

Pete,
It appears that you are in the UK.
~
Are there any Generators available in the UK, that are made in the UK?
~
Have to agree with the others - no choice! Even "old-time" US mfgrs
like Onan and Cummins are putting their name on the small Chinese Gens.
~
It is what it is!
JC

[N9WOS]

A note on another brand of generator.
The brand is Wen power.

If someone has already commented on it, forgive me.

They are selling here locally at Menards. Menards has a ~850W 2 cycle version 3500W version, and a 5500W version.

The 850W version is around $150 The 5500W is about $500

The 3500W version is the same general line as the ~3000W units we have all been talking about. The unit Menards has, looks well built. With voltage selector switch, a twist lock 240V plug, a duplex receptacle, and a 12V DC lighter plug.

The price is $299 which is in line with the other 3000W china clones in this area.

It says it has an AVR which is a bonus for some, and a ban for others (me included)

They had the owners manual out on the shelf for people to look at. I looked at the schematic.

Warning!!!!
The big problem I seen with it is you do NOT want to use that lighter plug for actually powering anything. Don’t plug your cell phone charger in, or a DC powered TV, it will either fry it, or it just won‘t work.

Just because they put a lighter plug on it, doesn’t mean they put anything else there to drive it. The lighter plug just has the same unfiltered rectifier driving it that the other generators with the binding post have. So if you hook anything to it, it will just be powered by an unfiltered pulsating DC.

The only use the lighter plug would be is with a 12V incandescent light, or with a lighter cord with a set of battery clips on the other end for charging a battery

[skyzoomer]

professor95 wrote:
Concerning the MOV. The advice you have been given by Wayne is accurate. The MOV is designed to clip spikes or peaks in voltage, not act as a failsafe regulator. Rather than build on supposition, I set up a test using a MOV.

Prof95,

Thanks much for actually testing this and sharing your "time and work" with us as always.

Would units like a flat screen or computer on the output of an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) be safe from an overvoltage that the MOV does not protect against? Or would the UPS fail and just carry the overvoltage to the units?

Thanks,
Skyzoomer

[Wayne_Dohnal]

I've never seen or heard of a 120 volt inverter that didn't have all of its outlets hardwired in parallel.

[bobandcat]

I have decided to add a 12vdc to 110v ac inverter to my current Champion genset. This will give me 3 power choices: generator, inverter or shore power.
In order to not overload an outlet on the inverter, I intend to connect 2 outlets together, dogbone style. Here is my question to the electrical experts. Are all of the outlets on an inverter (probably a Cobra CPI2550) the same phase or is there a phase shift similar to our generator head? My gut feel is 'no', but, I would like to get some more input.

I haven't bought the inverter yet, so I can't take it apart to check its wiring. As you can see in the schematic, I am using a 4 pole double throw toggle switch to transfer from generator to inverter. I also have an automatic transfer switch that switches from shore power to generator/inverter power.