3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:


The thing I don't like about the 120v only Champions is they only have a trickle charger for the battery.

Sort of.

On the 120 VAC only electric start there is a charge coil on the back of the flywheel where the ring gear attaches. The 120 volt only units without electric start no longer have the 12 VDC out.

The 240/120 volt units have a separate 12 volt winding. It puts out AC and is rectified by a full wave bridge.

Looking at Brads photos..... not sure how you were coupled. Doesn't look like the scope was set to DC.

Anyway, 12VDC out is thru a full wave bridge rectifier (diode). Without a filter or battery attached you can expect a wild waveform. Doing the volts test with a capacitor only will give you a false reading. You need a bleeder resistor across the cap - a 2 watt 1K ohms would be OK. I think you probably were coupling using AC and thus were seeing a lot of "noise" on the DC signal.

No, Brad, even if you did build on others ideas, you engineered the genny conversion. It was not a kit. It is impressive and extremely well designed. Mine worked, but the engineering was nothing like what you did!

Prof,

How many amp output do you have on the 12v charger on the 40008? My understanding is that my old Electric Start DuroPower DP3500EC is some what the same. The DuroPower had both the 12v/10a output and a trickle charger (like the 40008)for the genny battery. Brad had stated this trickle charger needed to be disconnected when I started using the house battery on the MH. I did. Floyd

[blkfe]

Lets assume it is a Full wave rectifier. Since it is not filtered the voltage is always changing...thus, My waveforms are correct no matter what coupling I was using.
Please correct me....ok...I'm going to bed....
Brad

[blkfe]

Ah...."I see" said the blind man to his seven deaf daughters in the dark.....

I do beleive I was DC coupled but Jeez Professor,
I'm gonna have to do this again in the COLD...
Brad

[blkfe]

blkfe wrote:
The 240/120 volt units have a separate 12 volt winding. It puts out AC and is rectified by a full wave bridge.

Looking at Brads photos..... not sure how you were coupled. Doesn't look like the scope was set to DC.

Hey Professor,
Not sure how I could of messed up on the scope settings. If I was set on AC only the flat 0 volt vs. time leads me to think its only two NP junctions.........AKA 1/2 wave...your thoughts....

And yes, I was confused...not what I expected to see.

Brad

[blkfe]

The 240/120 volt units have a separate 12 volt winding. It puts out AC and is rectified by a full wave bridge.

Looking at Brads photos..... not sure how you were coupled. Doesn't look like the scope was set to DC.

Hey Professor,
Not sure how I could of messed up on the scope settings. If I was set on AC only the flat 0 volt vs. time leads me to think its only two NP junctions.........AKA 1/2 wave...your thoughts....

Brad

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:


The thing I don't like about the 120v only Champions is they only have a trickle charger for the battery.

Sort of.

On the 120 VAC only electric start there is a charge coil on the back of the flywheel where the ring gear attaches. The 120 volt only units without electric start no longer have the 12 VDC out.

The 240/120 volt units have a separate 12 volt winding. It puts out AC and is rectified by a full wave bridge.

Looking at Brads photos..... not sure how you were coupled. Doesn't look like the scope was set to DC.

Anyway, 12VDC out is thru a full wave bridge rectifier (diode). Without a filter or battery attached you can expect a wild waveform. Doing the volts test with a capacitor only will give you a false reading. You need a bleeder resistor across the cap - a 2 watt 1K ohms would be OK. I think you probably were coupling using AC and thus were seeing a lot of "noise" on the DC signal.

No, Brad, even if you did build on others ideas, you engineered the genny conversion. It was not a kit. It is impressive and extremely well designed. Mine worked, but the engineering was nothing like what you did!

[Old___Slow]

12v output on the C46540,

I have been using a 12v 80watt 1150cfm rad fan on two different Gensets. A DP3500EC and the Champion C46540. The thing I don't like about the 120v only Champions is they only have a trickle charger for the battery. Using the 12v 80w fan has never triped the breaker. This type of fan is real good for a enclosure. Moves lots of air. Someone questioned how long the fan would last. The one I'm now using is a Procomp and maybe has two hundred hours of use. BTW: I'm starting to see a oil leak on the C46540. Will hope for the best. She's been a good one so far. Thanks Brad for the pictures.

[77charger]

professor95 wrote:

77charger wrote:
For mine i use filter oil on the air filter as well as grease the end of the foam which helps alot.I usually have to clean my gen once a season(carb area due to sticking).

I assume the oil is something like K&N recharger oil?

When you say "grease the end of the foam" I see you putting axle and bearing grease around all of the edges?

smart man!

i just use air filter oil for a dirtbike spray it on and then compress it.These champion filters werent designed for the conditions i use the gen in.Sand will get thru anything it can so i figured i would at least slow it down,I ought to take a picture of the filter next time after a long weekend stay if the wind picks up.

[blkfe]

Sorry Professor,
Here is another try. Thanks, I must say most, if not all, was taking others ideas and work and doing the whole copy thing.

Ok...I was bored today so ran some tests on the 12VDC output of my Champ. (10volts/Div)



Here is the output without a load. My el-cheapo meter read this as 12.86 Volts.



Here is the output with a 4700 microfarad Cap. accross it. My meter read this as 21.9 volts.



Here is the output with my 12 fan running. No Cap in circuit.
Meter readings were 12.5 volts and 6.8 amps.



Here it is with the fan running with the CAP accross the output.
Meter read 16 volts and 8.9 amps.

The block is gone and replaced with a mount and tie down for the fuel tank.
Once again, Thanks,

Brad

[professor95]

77charger wrote:
For mine i use filter oil on the air filter as well as grease the end of the foam which helps alot.I usually have to clean my gen once a season(carb area due to sticking).

I assume the oil is something like K&N recharger oil?

When you say "grease the end of the foam" I see you putting axle and bearing grease around all of the edges?

[professor95]

blkfe wrote:
I am quite sure the professor has covered this before. As much as I hate to do this I am posting a link to wave forms of the DC (component) output of my champion generator.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20606145/srt/pa/pging/1/page/33

Hope this helps,
Brad

Well, I could not find the waveform thou I am pretty sure what it looks like. ^^^^^^^^^

What I did do was review all of your photos, schematics and drawings for your conversion.

You know, Brad, you undoubtably have the best engineered conversion project that has ever been posted on this thread - and yes, that includes mine!

Have you replaced the cinder block under the gas tank yet?

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Prof,

As of now I don't see the LPG retro on the Champion 40008 in your compartment?

Floyd

It is not visible in the photos I posted. But, it is there!

[professor95]

quingus wrote:
Professor

I know you might you have talked about this somewhere in this topic, but my eyeballs have gone red halfway thru. Do you have a post link about the propane vs. gas genny or if propane is better than gas and all the pros and cons about it. I apologize if I'm beatin' the horse, I do like the info this topic has to offer. Thanks.

Scott

I did one awhile back here.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/21337191.cfm

[77charger]

trumptman88 wrote:
Just a quick update to let you all know that my Champion C46540 spent a week working flawlessly out at the Imperial Sand Dunes, aka Glamis. We used it to recharge batteries, for air conditioning and for running the satellite box one night for shows that we couldn't get over the air.

I also had a new LCD television and inverter in the mix along with charging a Mac laptop and cell used for internet service. The power was clean enough that nothing ever complained. The circumstances in which it was run were again, filthy and nasty. The silt is incredibly fine and just crawls into every cranny you can imagine. The Champion started right up and ran fine with nary a second pull most times.

I did check the oil level and added before we took off. We did encounter one problem when the pull string broke. It did so right at the handle and so we simply rethreaded it through and tied it again two inches shorter.

This did make me wonder though, anyone had to replace the entire pull string on their Champion? Mine is three years old now and it probably wouldn't hurt to replace the whole thing.

I run a champion at glamis but if the wind picks up be sure to put in the back of a truck away from sand.It can get thru the filter and some into the carb throat area.Which will cause the carb to stick sometimes.You will know when this happens it will struggle to start up simple loads then speed up and engine speed will be high after load demand drops.

For mine i use filter oil on the air filter as well as grease the end of the foam which helps alot.I usually have to clean my gen once a season(carb area due to sticking).

As for the hondas my brothers eu2k doesnt hold out too well out there.

[blkfe]

I am quite sure the professor has covered this before. As much as I hate to do this I am posting a link to wave forms of the DC (component) output of my champion generator.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20606145/srt/pa/pging/1/page/33

Hope this helps,
Brad