3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:

Paul Cole (aka Champion Power Equipment Sr. Service Engineer) is flying into Richmond Friday night for the NASCAR race on Saturday. I will once again have the opportunity to spend some time with Paul and pick his brain for what I can about any new products, accessories or changes. Unless I have to cut my finger and sign a non-disclosure agreement in blood I'll let the thread know what to look for.

For those who may be interested, Paul Cole did make it into Richmond over the weekend and we got to spend some time talking – albeit brief.

Paul missed his early flight out of LA on Friday and had to take a later plane that was routed through Houston. This meant he did not land in Richmond until noon Saturday. His flight back to LA was at 11:40 the next day.

With only 23 hours available, the NASCAR race on the schedule and a need for some sleep, the opportunity to get into long theoretical discussions on Champion generators was somewhat limited. Most of the discussion time was devoted to his recent marriage to a beautiful woman still in China and personal plans for the future when his bride is able to get a permanent visa to join him in the United States.

Several things Paul shared with me cannot be shared on the thread right now. I did have to prick my finger, sign in blood and cross my heart five times. I keep my promises and will remain moot in that area.

I can tell you that those who want to see a Honda 2000i (inverter) clone from Champion will need to be patient. Apparently the issues surrounding small inverter generators are much more complex that we assume. There are some hot patent infringement cases in progress that could totally change the Chinese cloned inverter generator market. It is best not to jump into that fray until everything is settled.

If you are looking for a quieter open frame generator with sound control panels and a redesigned engine, it ain’t gonna’ happen any time soon. Neither is a specific RV purposed model like the Onan or Generac that are often installed in Motor Homes.

The RV market is pretty soft right now. Many companies have gone out of business. Demand for RV related products is way down. People are hanging onto their moldy money expecting harder times ahead. Introducing a new RV specific generator into such a market is way, way down on the priority list.

The flip side of the troubled economy is more folks that might purchase "upper end" generators like the Honda appear to be shopping more carefully and price consciously. This has translated into more small generator sales at the $500 level than the $1,500 level.


But, the good news is that the electric start 40008 type 3,500 watt RV ready generators are now closer to being available in the USA from more than one vendor.

R&D and product improvement at CPE are still a front burner item. There are several upgrades and refinements for their current line of 3,500 watt generators that will soon become standard in production models at no additional cost. These refinements are along the lines of what we have been asking for. Hopefully, I will be given a green light to share what they are within the next few months.

Catalytic converters are now required on new models for CARB certification in California. The cat is inside the muffler, so it is easy to configure the genny with or without CARB certification. Those of us in the other 49 states and Canada will not get the mufflers with the catalytic converter. California folks will have to pay something like $60 - $100 more for their cat equipped gennys.

It seems the biggest cause of product failure continues to be overfilling with oil and leaving the fuel petcock turned on. CPE stresses that the engine only holds 6/10 of a quart of oil. Overfilling will ruin an engine!

Gasoline is as insidious as water about finding paths to travel where we do not want it to go. Despite a well designed needle and seat in the carburetor, it is not unusual for gasoline to seep past the needle and eventually flood the crankcase with fuel. This may take several months – a micron of fuel at a time – to occur. But, since many owners store their generators for months at a time, it does happen.

When some one tries to start an engine with a fuel flooded crankcase the oil-gas mixture goes everywhere. Out the air filter, seals, breather, and fills the muffler with the mix. Therefore, it is extremely important that two steps be taken when getting ready to stop and restart an engine.

1st – Never leave the fuel petcock open. Always shut it off when stopping the engine.

2nd – Always check the oil level before starting an engine. If the crankcase is flooded, you will know immediately since the overfill will come surging out.

While these rules are more prevalent for stored engines, they are not bad habits to acquire for occasional use engines as well.

Problems with the oil level float sticking and preventing an engine from starting, even when full of oil, have virtually been eliminated with the new CPE oil level sensor design.

That’s about it unless you want to learn some Chinese words and copy some recipes for excellent Asian eating fare.

[jimmyfred]

...............Just as a point of information , I visited with a tech guy here in the oil field of north central texas , he was pulling a trailer filled with his equipment including a 15k btu air unit . It was all powered by a honda 6.5kw inverter genset , it was running SO quietly I had to walk back and feel for vibration for "proof" that it was actually working . This genset was mounted outside the trailer with NO weather protection whatsoever , and he said it had done quite well in this configuration for well over a year .
...............This will be my next genset , if budget allows . , jf

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Then is it the opinion on this thread that all generator engines are the same in the noise factor? A Honda 3000i has the same noise factor as a k/o Honda GX200 like in the Champion 3000? It has been my thinking the noise factor is in the orignal design. We had the old loud jet engines and then came a more quiet engine. Nothing to do with a water jacket. The proof is in the pudding.

Floyd

I write this more as information for new readers of this thread than a response to the above.

Once more - the Honda GX200 and Chinese clones are what they are. And, since we are using old sayings like "proof in the pudding" it should be OK to add, "You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". In this case, the GX200 is the sow’s ear.

If you were an engineer who had the ability to design, cast and machine a new engine - sure, you could make it quieter. Honda apparently did that with the 3000i you cited.

But to suggest that we can redesign a GX200 engine to have the features of the engine on a 3000i is ludicrous – just as suggesting that a company should build all of their engines like the higher priced superior design.

I stress again, if you have the money to spend and absolutely must have an “off the shelf” low noise generator then you should buy a Honda, Kippor, Yamaha or whatever inverter style, fully encased generator to begin with and get it over with.

With the intent of creating an understandable analogy for home brew modifications: Some folks simply buy a Ferarri or Corvette and pay the price up front to go fast, others choose to buy lesser priced vehicles and modify them with add-ons so they will also go fast. Sadly, no mater how much money they throw at modifying a "rice burner" to go as fast as a Ferarri, it will never be a Ferarri.

The open frame Chinese generators are designed to be a lower cost, dependable, reduced noise (compared to Briggs and Powermate counterparts), portable source of electrical power when working “off the grid”. They were never designed to be competitive with the 3000i class of generators.

Then I come along and with me are a bunch of friends who enjoy hacking, modifying and changing the way a machine works. Speaking for myself, I enjoy doing the “Tim Tool Time” type of mods like stuffing a Cadillac engine into a ’87 Pontiac Fiero, converting a window air conditioner to a roof top RV unit, building a water/alcohol injection system for my TV’s engine, and recycling old door lock actuators to open and close the sewer dump valves on my RV. For me, there is more pleasure and satisfaction in making these devices than just buying a manufactured device that does the same. It is not a money issue – it is a “man” issue.

When confronted with a 3,000 watt open frame generator that has the ability to power the air conditioner and other items in a RV at a price that would allow me to buy six of them for what a single Honda 3000i sells for ($330 vs $2,000) is akin to some one calling Michael J. Fox chicken (re: Marty in Back to the Future). The challenge is there and will not be denied.

Quite a few of us have taken the steps to create “boxes” or enclosures that still allow adequate air flow to keep the Chinese generators cool and at the same time reduce the level of objectionable noise that comes from the unit. But none of us have redesigned the generator power head or generator itself. Our work is more like paint on a wall to cover up something objectionable.

So, I say it again. The GX200 engine is what it is. Should you want a differently designed engine, let go of some of that moldy money and buy one. In the mean time, let’s not get into another long drawn out discussion as to how the industry should offer Ferarri quality and performance at a Yugo price.

[Old___Slow]

Then is it the opinion on this thread that all generator engines are the same in the noise factor? A Honda 3000i has the same noise factor as a k/o Honda GX200 like in the Champion 3000? It has been my thinking the noise factor is in the orignal design. We had the old loud jet engines and then came a more quiet engine. Nothing to do with a water jacket. The proof is in the pudding.

Floyd

[kyle_morley]

It is, motor aside, identical to a Coleman Powermate I owned briefly (it had a Briggs OHV that threw a rod at 20 hours!), with a Powermate-style alternator head with the characteristic plastic endbell and needle bearing - most gensets have metal endbells and ball bearings). This setup is looked down upon by mechanics and generator wonks, since when the grease in the needle bearing runs out the bearing overheats, melting the plastic end bell, which allows the rotor to flail about, destroying itself, the stator, or both.

Be that as it may, the old Colemans seem to last as well better-made heads. However the Homelite you are talking about is rumored not to be a Powermate at all, but rather a Chinese copy of the old US-made Powermate. Not sure how parts availability is, as Homelite seems to be fallen on hard times, and Coleman sold the Powermate line years ago, and the new owner went bankrupt.
Short answer: there are lots of better choices, with the better Honda-clone engineed Chinese ones being high on the list.

twcguy wrote:
Does anyone have any info on this Homelite model that is available at Home Depot? Subaru engine, $499.

http://www.homelite.com/catalog/generators/HG3500

It will be used for camping out in the local deserts, so noise is not a big concern.

[MrWizard]

as has been noted, in many posts and observations. an open frame simply distributes more noise than an enclosed model.

remove all the paneling from an enclosed inverter genny, and ramp up the load to 3600 RPM and it won't be so quiet.

the enclosure is what dampens the crank case noise, reducing speed by using an inverter AND engine speed proportional to the power needed limits the crankcase noise that needs to be dampened.

it is useless to expect MFG to be able to further reduce the crankcase noise of an air cooled open frame piece of equipment.

any more noise abate will come from enclosures and/or water cooling, both of which add to the COST & weight of the generator

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:
Floyd,

You can purchase acoustic foam from a source such as Parts Express with the convoulted design. The price is about $5 to $12 per sq. foot, depending on the thickness.

A similar shaped convoulted foam is used in mattress pads and typically runs about $1 per square foot when you consider the size and cost of a typical pad. For example; a twin pad is about 20 sq. ft. and runs about $20. Hospital grade pads have a denser foam and deeper "fingers". Check the internet and local home health care stores for sources in your area. The one I have came from a drugstore in town that sells speciality home medical care products and is designed to reduce the incidence of bed sores in confined patients.

As for lighter metals in the Chinese GX200 engine, no is the answer. The thickness of the block would have little or nothing to do with the noise anyway. A water cooled engine would, of course, reduce noise.

As discussed in previous threads, the majority of noise comes from the lower block or crank case area. Second source of noise is in the fan and flywheel compartment. The exhaust is well muffled.

The engine is what the engine is..... a small air cooled 4 stroke, OHV power equipment engine used on everything from water pumps to minibikes and go carts.

Snip~

I am surprised you asked this question. I was under the impression that you had found a design that was successful for the Duropower in the old MH.

I admit, I was able to lower the dbA of the DuroPower to around 60 in the old MH. That design was like a box in a box. Also I have a enclosure in the shop that will lower the sound of the Champion to a good 62/63 level. My question had to do with the native state of the open frame gensets and the GX 200 engine. I have not noticed a single MFG lowering the sound level of a open frame type genset. Seems the smaller engines used for the inverters in this class are without flywheels and are much more quiet. Guess my question was 'how much different are these smaller engines' by design. Why the difference.

'nother note. I have padded the fan shroud on the Champion and found some success with a slight lowering of noise. My idea at present is to add panels using the mattress foam. The enclosure being used now has 1/2" mdf/3/4" spacer/ 2 layers 1/2" carpet pad and carpet. I'm thinking, just apply the mattress pad material direct to the panel. Much more simple. I've been using a flame-x product from 'National Fireproofing, Inc.

Floyd

[professor95]

twcguy wrote:
Does anyone have any info on this Homelite model that is available at Home Depot? Subaru engine, $499.

http://www.homelite.com/catalog/generators/HG3500

It will be used for camping out in the local deserts, so noise is not a big concern.

No first hand experience. One thing to check out is if the generator will provide full wattage to a single outlet in the 120 volt mode. Most generators of this type split the 120 volt power between two outlets, which is unsatisfactory for a RV needing 120 VAC at up to 30 amps. If that is the case, you might as well just buy a 1,500 watt genny and save some money.

For $400 you might want to check out the current line of Chinese gennys this thread has been focused on for over four years. They have proven to be very reliable, easy to repair and quite enough to meet most all noise limit restrictions for RV's.

[professor95]

Floyd,

You can purchase acoustic foam from a source such as Parts Express with the convoulted design. The price is about $5 to $12 per sq. foot, depending on the thickness.

A similar shaped convoulted foam is used in mattress pads and typically runs about $1 per square foot when you consider the size and cost of a typical pad. For example; a twin pad is about 20 sq. ft. and runs about $20. Hospital grade pads have a denser foam and deeper "fingers". Check the internet and local home health care stores for sources in your area. The one I have came from a drugstore in town that sells speciality home medical care products and is designed to reduce the incidence of bed sores in confined patients.

As for lighter metals in the Chinese GX200 engine, no is the answer. The thickness of the block would have little or nothing to do with the noise anyway. A water cooled engine would, of course, reduce noise.

As discussed in previous threads, the majority of noise comes from the lower block or crank case area. Second source of noise is in the fan and flywheel compartment. The exhaust is well muffled.

The engine is what the engine is..... a small air cooled 4 stroke, OHV power equipment engine used on everything from water pumps to minibikes and go carts.

My research and experiments have also shown that blowing air into a compartment to cool an engine is a lost cause. Too much turbluence is created and cooling is comprimised. Satisfactory results can be obtained using an exhaust fan with high pitched blades designed to work with negative static pressures placed directly under or behind the engine/generator connection. Fans should not be placed at the ends or top of the compartment. The larger air intake(s) should be at the starter end with a smaller intake at the end of the generator. This air flow design does work and reduces noise considerably. It is best if the muffler is moved outside the box.

I am surprised you asked this question. I was under the impression that you had found a design that was successful for the Duropower in the old MH.

[Old___Slow]

Prof'95,

It's been said 'curioscity killed the cat, satisfaction brought it back' Since you are our maim source of great info' concerning Chinese Gensets, here is a question.

In the last two years many hours have been spent in my little Yellow and Black shop trying to lower the noise from the Champion. This 196cc engine, I do believe, is close to the same in all makes and models of the 3000w Chinese knock off class gensets. Small differences no doubt in the milling. Here is the question. Is this little 196cc engine made of 'lighter material' than the TRUE Honda and therefore making it more noisy??? Is there no hope to silence this k/o engine?
No mfg seems to be able to lower the noise factor of these open frame gensets? Maybe Paul Cole has the true answer with a new unit. One note, all the hard foam products used have had little effect to lower the sound. Brad's use of carpet has also proved successful for me. The blue mattress pad used in the cave looks interesting. What will be next?

Floyd

[twcguy]

Does anyone have any info on this Homelite model that is available at Home Depot? Subaru engine, $499.

http://www.homelite.com/catalog/generators/HG3500

It will be used for camping out in the local deserts, so noise is not a big concern.

[Old___Slow]

Prof95,

Great to hear you will be meeting with the SR. Tech guy (Mr. Paul Cole) with Champion. Don't know if he is coming to see you or see the race. Whatever. In my memory bank there is a statement from Champion. They were to be coming out with a 'True RV Genset' Don't know if that statement covered building a more quiet genset or one that will be good for RV compartment installation. Either way, maybe you will have news for us. Just waiting for 'good news'

Floyd

[Emptyspaces]

Professor,
I've tried about everything I can think of, even completely removing the valve cover vent hose from the air filter housing. It's open and working properly. The governor shaft seemed to have quite a bit of vertical movement compared to my ELM 3000 so I added a thin washer under the clip to raise the shaft slightly and reduce the slack. This had no effect of the leak.

As this is a new engine excessive wear isn't the problem.

Out of curiosity, on your engine, does the washer fit snug against the case or does it have notable clearance?

I would appreciate any insight Paul might have on the problem.

Thanks!

[professor95]

Emptyspaces wrote:
Professor,

I recently bought a 1200/1500w Model ST1500 mfg. by Robot. It's the typical GX clone in a downsized version. It has an oil leak at the governor shaft on top of the block. I've looked at every IPB of this series motor and none show a seal for the shaft, only a plain flat washer.
In your Photobucket pics you have an excellent shot of the governor.

It appears there might be a seal in the case where the shaft goes through the block. Do you remember if this is a seal or just a washer?

I've check for a plugged crankcase vent and is OK. The leak is significant while running. If this is just a flat washer it probably is to deflect oil thrown from the crank and may be missing. Returning the gen is not an option so I may have to do surgery.

Thanks

Looking at the inside of an open crankcase engine a few minutes ago, it appears to be just a washer,

I will give the question to Paul this weekend to see if he can shed any light on the problem. (see previous message as to who Paul is)

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
And Prof, where did you buy that blue stuff you used for sound suppression. I like that too!

Floyd

The blue stuff is from a hospital grade convoluted mattress pad my mother-in-law once used. It had the contours and depth of noise canceling foam - so I said, "Why not".

Actually, it works extremely well at an extremely nicer price of about $1 per square foot. It is glued up with 3M #90 spray adhesive (Home Depot).

Paul Cole (aka Champion Power Equipment Sr. Service Engineer) is flying into Richmond Friday night for the NASCAR race on Saturday. I will once again have the opportunity to spend some time with Paul and pick his brain for what I can about any new products, accessories or changes. Unless I have to cut my finger and sign a non-disclosure agreement in blood I'll let the thread know what to look for.