3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:

TomG2 wrote:
Wrace. Have you done any more testing with the Spp6 capacitor. I am sure there are many of us hoping that it performs as well as expected.

No, just what I have documented on this thread already.

I tried the Spp6 wired across the the factory start capacitor and across the run capacitor and in both cases it made the situation worse over the stock AC. With the SPP6 installed in either position the champion would start the AC with some increased effort and the Honda didn't even come close to starting the AC.

The complexity of induction motor design is way, way too much to try and explain on this thread. In fact, I rely on looking up specific motor data when needed.

Many electric induction motors use capacitors only to start, others us them to run as well by creating a differential between current and voltage. Some even use the same capacitor for both.

"Normally" refrigeration compressor motors use a high value capacitor to give the motor an extra surge of current to get it rolling in the right direction and to overcome locked rotor current surges. Frequently adding additional capacitance - such as the Supco unit - can be beneficial with hard to start motors - particularly those that use thermal disk overload protectors that heat when rotor current on start-up is high and is prone to cutting off the compressor before it gets rolling.

But - and there is always a "but" - additional capacitance is not a cure-all like aspirin is for humans. Some electric motors simply do not respond to added capacitance. In fact, the additional capacitance can hurt the motor performance by changing the voltage/current curve the motor is designed to respond to.

You know, Mr. Wizard is the electric motor man on this thread. I do not pretend that electric motors are items I am an expert on as far as design and service. I do remember back in the 70's a class on induction motors when I was working on my BA in EE'ing - but that has been decades ago!

[kromix]

toprudder wrote:

kromix wrote:
whats the difference between the 40026 and the 46514 quality ?

I can get the 40026 @ my local lowes for $280 out the door, should I pull the trigger? I just want it to be good quality like the other ones you guys dissect in this thread.. any reason I should not get it?
Going to be used for hurricane/power loss situations in Miami to power my fish tank and a couple things here and there....

I don't think there would be any difference in quality between the two, but I only have personal experience with the 40026.

The 46514 has the advantage of either 120v or 120/240 output. For RV use (why I bought mine) the 40026 is fine, it is 120v only and all the power is available on the 120v outlet. To do the same thing with the 46514, you must flip the selector switch to the 120v only position. However, having the 240v position is nice if you have a well pump or some other appliance that runs at 240v. This was not a concern for me.

$280 for the 40026? Sounds like a good deal to me! It would be completely adequate for the tasks you listed. Also, the wheel kit is nice, which I think is a separate option for the 46514.

Got ya thanks, I hope my fridge is 120V atleast...

[toprudder]

kromix wrote:
whats the difference between the 40026 and the 46514 quality ?

I can get the 40026 @ my local lowes for $280 out the door, should I pull the trigger? I just want it to be good quality like the other ones you guys dissect in this thread.. any reason I should not get it?
Going to be used for hurricane/power loss situations in Miami to power my fish tank and a couple things here and there....

I don't think there would be any difference in quality between the two, but I only have personal experience with the 40026.

The 46514 has the advantage of either 120v or 120/240 output. For RV use (why I bought mine) the 40026 is fine, it is 120v only and all the power is available on the 120v outlet. To do the same thing with the 46514, you must flip the selector switch to the 120v only position. However, having the 240v position is nice if you have a well pump or some other appliance that runs at 240v. This was not a concern for me.

$280 for the 40026? Sounds like a good deal to me! It would be completely adequate for the tasks you listed. Also, the wheel kit is nice, which I think is a separate option for the 46514.

[kromix]

toprudder wrote:

kromix wrote:
1) Which models are the ones that are suggested to be purchased that seem to be good quality chinese hondas? only the 1 3500W champion? 46514?

2) Anyone have a good deal on one I can buy right now? In miami, Florida, no tractor supply B&M....

3) if there are other options I wanted to stay around $225-$250 if possible...

I bought the Champion 40026 from my local Lowes for a little over $300. I have not been by there lately to see if they still carry them. I do know that not all Lowes in this area carried them.

The nice thing about the model I bought is that it came with a wheel kit.

whats the difference between the 40026 and the 46514 quality ?


I can get the 40026 @ my local lowes for $280 out the door, should I pull the trigger? I just want it to be good quality like the other ones you guys dissect in this thread.. any reason I should not get it?
Going to be used for hurricane/power loss situations in Miami to power my fish tank and a couple things here and there....

[toprudder]

kromix wrote:
1) Which models are the ones that are suggested to be purchased that seem to be good quality chinese hondas? only the 1 3500W champion? 46514?

2) Anyone have a good deal on one I can buy right now? In miami, Florida, no tractor supply B&M....

3) if there are other options I wanted to stay around $225-$250 if possible...

I bought the Champion 40026 from my local Lowes for a little over $300. I have not been by there lately to see if they still carry them. I do know that not all Lowes in this area carried them.

The nice thing about the model I bought is that it came with a wheel kit.

[kromix]

Hello, new here and had a couple questions, read through the first couple pages in the beginning and end but no avail and didn't want to read 10,000 posts and I saw that posting repeat questions are ok... Here goes!


1) Which models are the ones that are suggested to be purchased that seem to be good quality chinese hondas? only the 1 3500W champion? 46514?

2) Anyone have a good deal on one I can buy right now? In miami, Florida, no tractor supply B&M....

3) if there are other options I wanted to stay around $225-$250 if possible...

[TomG2]

Thanks. I wonder if anyone has documented the same tests with positive results? Enjoy your tan.

[Wrace]

TomG2 wrote:
Wrace. Have you done any more testing with the Spp6 capacitor. I am sure there are many of us hoping that it performs as well as expected.

No, just what I have documented on this thread already.

I tried the Spp6 wired across the the factory start capacitor and across the run capacitor and in both cases it made the situation worse over the stock AC. With the SPP6 installed in either position the champion would start the AC with some increased effort and the Honda didn't even come close to starting the AC.

With the SPP6 removed and everything returned to stock configuration the champion starts the AC very easily, and the Honda also starts the AC in non eco mode with relative ease. It will start the AC in eco-mode but it sounds like its much harder on the generator so I don't do this.

Been in touch with supco and sent them pictures for reference. They confirmed I had it wired correctly when wired across the run capacitor and said sometimes the spp6 offers no improvement on some AC units over stock.

I put everything back together in stock fashion since it seems to work well.

I suspect the reason I could not get the AC to work with the honda on a consistent basis during my first day testing (before adding the SPP6) was because I was not waiting long enough for the delay feature to retry. I was familiar with the delay for heat but as we have only used the AC twice in the last 15 years I have not paid that much attention to its operation.

So to summarize:

- The stock AC will start and run on either the Champion or the Honda.

- Adding the spp6 resulted in the Champion starting the AC but with more difficulty and the Honda going into overload every time.

- I now have an spp6 sitting in my tool box.

- I now understand the components, wiring, and operation of my AC system better than before.

- I have a sun tan from laying on top of the RV in the sun while working on the AC. 🙂

[TomG2]

Wrace. Have you done any more testing with the Spp6 capacitor. I am sure there are many of us hoping that it performs as well as expected.

[W8NONU]

Try calling them directly and tell them the problem??? I did that when I ordered from Autoanything and they accepted my phone order as an online order with promo code.

[Skibane]

W8NONU wrote:
Tractor Supply 15% off first online purchase promo code... DOGDAYS

Maybe someone looking for a generator can use this. They currently have the 46514 for $299.99. Free shipping if you ship to store, too.

Several folks have reported that the "DOGDAYS" promo code doesn't work with that particular model. Is there some secret trick to it?

[MrWizard]

Those problems could be something unique about the compressor is wired internaly

[Wrace]

Professor, I am not really that frustrated. I knew going in that the 2000 would not likely run the AC, and I was ok with that given we have used the AC a grand total of 2 times in the last 15 years. But I can't help messing with this stuff and trying it out for myself. 🙂

No need to apologize at all. I greatly appreciate your help and the help of all the other RVnet members who contribute to the forum. While this is an imperfect communication medium it is still light years better than what we have had before. I am well aware of how valuable this forum and its members are to shortening the learning curve on many RV related subjects/problems.

Anyway, I believe the fan capacitor is shown on the schematic at the very top. I think your version of the schematic may have gotten cropped some.

I had the Spp6 wired across that black start capacitor with the two yellow wires yesterday and it made things much worse over the factory set-up. The champion struggled a bit more and the honda went into over-load each time along with some not so nice noises coming from the AC.

As per my most recent post I moved the Spp6 over to the run capacitor today and it was even worse than when it was wired across the black start capacitor. Champion still started the AC but with a bit more difficulty and the honda didn't have a chance.

After that I pulled the Spp6 out completely and returned everything to factory wiring. Now, the champion starts the AC like it's not even there, and the Honda starts it without too much struggle on a consistant basis, particularly if I unplug the converter while the AC is starting.

I don't know why the Spp6 made things so much worse than the stock set-up.

[professor95]

Wrace,

I know you are frustrated. I am sorry if I am contributing to the problem.

I did not see the third capacitor hiding behind the first two. Now that I do see it, I have a different opinion.

The capacitor in front is for your fan motor. It is not shown on the schematic.

The larger gray capacitor in the very back is the run capacitor. It has the red, yellow and white wires that go to the relay.

The black capacitor hiding in the back has two yellow wires. This appears to be an ADDED start capacitor. The strap that holds the capacitors in looks suspicious as well as the color and style of the start capacitor.

If the third time is a charm, your Supra6 hard start capacitor goes to the yellow wires on the hidden black capacitor.

It is entirely possible that the added Supra6 capacitor will NOT help. This will be dependent on how well the OEM capacitor is working.

The start capacitor stores energy when power is applied and then releases its "surge" when the relay closes to start the compressor motor. There is a point where an additional push is not needed or beneficial.

It is hard for me to accurately give advice when pieces are missing - in this case it was the black capacitor hiding in the back. Sorry - my old eyes missed it entirely first time around.

[Wrace]

Well here are today's results.

Ambient temp 78 degrees in the shade. The infrared thermometer would not take a reading on the galvanized sheet metal of the AC but the surrounding rubber roof was 130 degrees. (Not sure if ambient temp makes that much of a difference or not)

I wired the SPP6 across the run capacitor and it made the situation worse. Worse even then with the SPP6 wired across the start capacitor as I had it yesterday.

The Champion would start the AC fine, but there was a noticeable increase in how much it bogged down during start up as compared with the SPP6 across the start capacitor and especially when compared to no SPP6 install at all.

The Honda would go into overload immediately, where as yesterday it would overload but it took longer before it quit.

Then I removed the SPP6 and returned everything to factory wiring.

With the converter charging in boost mode you had to listen close to tell that the champion bogged at all during the AC start-up.

I unplugged the converter then tried the AC with the Honda in non-eco mode and it started the AC with what seemed like relative ease. It of course bogged down during start but there was no surging, vibrations, clicking or slow running of the AC like there was when the SPP6 was wired in. I did this multiple times and could not get the Honda to go into overload like it was doing yesterday.

Then I plugged the converter back in and put it in boost mode. The Honda again started the AC but it definitely took more effort. But again, no noises or other drama with the AC, just a deeper dip in rpms/noise from the generator during start-up, and it didn't sound like the generator recovered to as high of rpm level as it did with the converter out of the loop. I did this several more times with the converter running and the Honda started the AC every time.

So I don't know what to think. I don't understand why the hard start capacitor made things worse, unless I still have it miswired somehow.

Guess I should be happy the Honda will start the AC in whatever configuration works. Besides its not like there was anything better to do besides lie on my side on top of an RV with a 130 degree surface temperature with the sun directly in my eyes while trying to do wiring inside a small shiny metal box. 🙂