3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[bwloans]

professor95 wrote:

bwloans wrote:
have been reviewing this thread for over a year and bought a Champion 3500/4250 genset almost 1 year ago. Plugged in RV(2005 Flletwood) and tried A/C(13,500 BTU) and would just bog genset down. Took to dealer and told them that the A/c would not work. They blamed genset and told me everything was fine. I tried the rewire from this thread and gen still bogged down. Just bought new Champion RV ready set with all 3500 watts and 29+ amps to RV plug. Compressor kicks on, bogs the gen, then shuts off only leaving the fan running. Dealer says that it is still the gen because it is an off-brand Chinese set...I have not taken back for them to check yet...can anyone tell me what would cause A/C to pull so much at compressor start-up? My warranty on trailer is up in 1 month. Thanks in advance....

BTW, I tried first genset on grandparents 11,000 btu A/c and it did just fine without mods...

I think your dealer is giving you a real run-around. You KNOW after reading all the comments on this forum that the Champion (as well as others) will definately run an RV air conditioner. My Prowler has a 15,000 BTU unit and it just purrs along like a kitten with the generator. BTW, inform your dealer that Champion is not an "off brand". CPE is an extremely large company with over 2,000 sales outlets. CPE owns their own manufacturing facility in China. They do not buy and relabel their products from a random vendor. I think it is fair to assume that the Onan Homesite portable generator would be one of these "Chinese Off Brands" according to your dealer.

Maybe you should ask your dealer to try your AC off of one of the so called top brand 3,000 watt generators - like a Honda 3,000 EU. I will tell you right now, if your Champion RV model won't start your AC, neither will the Honda (or Kipor)! But be cautioned, he might get it to kick off of a 4,500 watt or larger Onan. But it absolutely should not take a unit that big to start your AC.

Go around your dealer and call the AC manufacturer and demand that a compentent facility run a test on the unit. With the proper equipment, a test should record the initial starting current and how long that current is required as well as the run current. Your dealer most likely does not have anything like this to make a comprehensive load analysis. Best bet is a big residential/commercial AC installer in your area.

Thanks professor for the reply...called the dealer this AM, explained situation..set appt to take in this week....they still are trying to tell me that the only good luck they have had is with Honda gens and that the A/C can pull up to 3 times its running amps during start-up...if it runs at 14.6 then 3x is 43+ amps...that would most likely trip a 30 amp service would it not?

[dash8wrench]

I plan to mount a 30 amp receptacle to the outside of the box, bringing the wiring from the backside of the panel on the generator. I'll probably use a deflector for the exhaust to deflect it downward or add an extension to the muffler to get it outside of the enclosure.

I'd still like to somehow isolate the exhaust system with sheet metal to segregate that air and expedite it's removal from the enclosure. I'm thinking of a shroud around the exhaust with a large muffin fan from a duct to force that heat source from the enclosure rather than depend on convection to remove it. It would also keep that heat from the generator wiring as well. A small nimh battery pack could provide power for the fan as well as the overtemp circuit if installed.

As for the recoil starter, a bit of added rope and an aircraft pulley mounted on a bracket will allow for starting.

[professor95]

dash8wrench wrote:
Here's what I plan to do with my generator with a cargo carrier mounted to the back of our 5er. Rough sketch in MS paint, but I think you'll get the idea.

Looks nice.

By hardboard, I assume you are refering to what I call "Masonite"?

Now, what about the exhaust? Does it exit inside the box, or do you have an extension to route it out of the box? IMHO, I would want to get it out of the box (muffler can stay in the box).

I am also interested in what you are going to do about access to the front pannel and how you are going to use the recoil starter.

[dash8wrench]

Here's what I plan to do with my generator with a cargo carrier mounted to the back of our 5er. Rough sketch in MS paint, but I think you'll get the idea.

[Lincoln4]

New to the forums, but have been lurking. I took my RV (88 Winnebago SuperChief) in to the shop on Friday due to the Onan genset running rich, and not very well at all. Found out it was going to cost about $1100 out the door to fix it, so I started looking around for alternatives. I found this site and this post and did a lot of reading. Today I bought the Champion #46540 online at PartsAmerica, using the coupon posted earlier here. Total cost after tax with me picking it up at the local Schucks was $305 and change.

I got it set up and running this evening. I gotta tell you I'm impressed. It doesn't seem to be any louder than my Onan (I'll have to test that out when I get the RV back tomorrow). I hooked it up to my house's generator panel, and it ran everything fine. Thanks for the info, I may have to hang out at RV.net some more.

[deshemar]

professor95 wrote:
The DuroPower is a nice little unit. It is almost identical to the ELM3000 I purchased in March of 2005 when this thread began. Both the DuroPower and original ELM3000 are built by a large Chinese plant named JiangDong.

The major mechanical differences betwen the Champion and JD units are in the way the voltage is regulated and the amount of distortion that appears on the output sine wave. The Champion uses a very well designed solid state voltage regulator with a sense winding. The JD units use a simple AC capacitor. Voltage is much more stable with the Champion AVR and the distortion on the output is somewhere in the range of 4% - pretty low for this class of generator. The Champion does use slip rings and a brush set rather than a brushless design. Initially, I saw this as a negative but now that I have been able to disect and examine both units I believe the brushes will outlast most of the other components.

Another thing to consider is your warranty and after the sale support. JD makes generators for perhaps a hundred or more distributors who sell them under their label (like DuroPower). Champion owns their own manufacturing facility and makes only their own label. Their warrranty and service/parts department are currently very responsive to customer needs and have impressed many on this forum.

If it sounds like I am advertising for Champion - I am not. At least not any more than I would advertise for products from GM, Fleetwood, Camco, Acar, Dometic or a slew of others that I have been blessed to receive good service, support and some value for my dollar from. I think one of the things that these forums do that makes them valuable is allowing contributors to honestly express their experiences with products and problems relevant to our life style.

Professor 95,
thanks for the information - you and Mr. wizard are a great source of information for those of us without the depth of knowledge you both deomonstrate. Thanks again - will be looking into the champion based on these comments.
on another note professor, I see by your profile you are here in Mechanicsville - hello neighbor - I live here too. Good to know you are close by.

[professor95]

nsbat7 wrote:
I also have a few grounding questions. I have the Powermate ProForce 3125
and the primary use if for power outage from storms (Miami) and to go camping a few times a year. I do not have and RV and if there is a power outage I'm not going to connect the generator to the house electric system, I'm just going to connect the basic utensils to an extension cord. Here are the questions...
1. How do I ground the generator in the house to use with an extension cord?
2. How do I ground the generator to use camping without an RV?
3. Do I need the copper rod?
4. I have a metal (I think is steel) construction rod 3' long, can I use that one if I need none at all?
5. How much $$$ is a digital monitor and where can I buy it? (Home Depot?)

Thanks

Nestor

1. How do I ground the generator in the house to use with an extension cord?


Use your existing service grounding rod or a metal cold water pipe. Just run a piece of #10 or larger copper cable from the generator frame to the ground. You can also use one side of a pair of jumper cables to make a temporary connection.

2. How do I ground the generator to use camping without an RV?


If the ground is moist and thus conductive, you can create a satisfactory grounding connection with a 12" metal tent stake. If the ground is dry and thus a poor conductor, you may need an 8 foot long rod driven all the way into the ground to contact earth moist enough to provide the needed conduction.

3. Do I need the copper rod?
4. I have a metal (I think is steel) construction rod 3' long, can I use that one if I need none at all?


Copper is specified in the National Electrical Code (NEC) because it is non-corrosive. If a steel or iron rod is used it will rust over time. The rust will serve as a poor conductor and render the rod less effective. For short term use, like a temporary rod for a portable generator, I would not hesitate to use your steel rod.

5. How much $$$ is a digital monitor and where can I buy it? (Home Depot?)


If you are refering to a digital multimeter for measuring voltage, HD would be an OK source. So would Wal-Mart or any electrical/electronics supply. If you really want to save money, check out Harbor Freight. They actually have some really nice meters for non-precision use that are often on sale for $4.00 or less.

[professor95]

bwloans wrote:
have been reviewing this thread for over a year and bought a Champion 3500/4250 genset almost 1 year ago. Plugged in RV(2005 Flletwood) and tried A/C(13,500 BTU) and would just bog genset down. Took to dealer and told them that the A/c would not work. They blamed genset and told me everything was fine. I tried the rewire from this thread and gen still bogged down. Just bought new Champion RV ready set with all 3500 watts and 29+ amps to RV plug. Compressor kicks on, bogs the gen, then shuts off only leaving the fan running. Dealer says that it is still the gen because it is an off-brand Chinese set...I have not taken back for them to check yet...can anyone tell me what would cause A/C to pull so much at compressor start-up? My warranty on trailer is up in 1 month. Thanks in advance....

BTW, I tried first genset on grandparents 11,000 btu A/c and it did just fine without mods...

I think your dealer is giving you a real run-around. You KNOW after reading all the comments on this forum that the Champion (as well as others) will definately run an RV air conditioner. My Prowler has a 15,000 BTU unit and it just purrs along like a kitten with the generator. BTW, inform your dealer that Champion is not an "off brand". CPE is an extremely large company with over 2,000 sales outlets. CPE owns their own manufacturing facility in China. They do not buy and relabel their products from a random vendor. I think it is fair to assume that the Onan Homesite portable generator would be one of these "Chinese Off Brands" according to your dealer.

Maybe you should ask your dealer to try your AC off of one of the so called top brand 3,000 watt generators - like a Honda 3,000 EU. I will tell you right now, if your Champion RV model won't start your AC, neither will the Honda (or Kipor)! But be cautioned, he might get it to kick off of a 4,500 watt or larger Onan. But it absolutely should not take a unit that big to start your AC.

Go around your dealer and call the AC manufacturer and demand that a compentent facility run a test on the unit. With the proper equipment, a test should record the initial starting current and how long that current is required as well as the run current. Your dealer most likely does not have anything like this to make a comprehensive load analysis. Best bet is a big residential/commercial AC installer in your area.

[professor95]

thehoneybees wrote:
Being that we have not used a generator before when camping, I'm concerned about a make do shed to sheild the generator from rain.
Has anyone made a portable generator shed? Or is it not necessary, will these generators run without being protected from the weather?

Good idea.

Simply put, the generators will run in the rain. But, the addition of moisture in and around the electrical circuits does not speak to the safest operation. Actually, many of the operator manuals warn against running the gennys in the rain.

The quick and dirty method RVers with portable generators use is to drag the generator under a picnic table and place some type of cover on top of the table.

Your method should work equally well if you have room to drag around the fiberglass.

[professor95]

Horizon70 wrote:
On 6-17-06 Professor95 wrote:

If you get a reading indicating a connection between either one of the flat blades and the “U” blade, you have a fault in your camper’s electrical system that should be corrected. This type of fault can go unnoticed because your electrical system seems to work fine.


Professor, I get an open circuit when testing as you suggested which means I'm OK. It seems that I am double protected as you described.

Is there any way to use a GFI to further reduce the risk of shock when using a gen-set giving me a third protection?

A Home Depot 20 amp GFCI will work, but it has the wrong configuration for a 30 amp TT plug meaning adapters will be needed. Note: GFCI are not overcurrent protection devices. A 20 amp GFCI is simply rated for 20 amps continious (just like a 20 amp outlet) and can handle higher currents for short periods of time.

You can purchase a 30 amp GFCI/Surge Supressor from most any RV supply for about $100.00. Example Here I have one of these and use it all the time, with and without the generator. I consider it a good investment!

[professor95]

MrWizard wrote:

now logic circuits are something i have experience with

and the 7404 is a 5 volt device designed to invert a signal

but it is NOT a load carrying device

I doubt it would survie the first time it tried to ground the ignition of the motor to turn it off, once it burned out, it would be same as not being there

the circuit would need to be a little more elaborate,

switching on a transistor or SCR to ground the ignition

maybe a solid state thermo-sensor could be used


My thoughts as well. The 7404 would need a 5v filtered supply, which would probably have to be available BEFORE the generator starts, so that it CAN start. Then it would have to drive a relay whose contacts are in the shutoff circuit.

I would think a simple transistor circuit would be a little easier and more robust for this application.

Bob R.

OK George and Bob,

Remember the problem was having a normally closed thermal switch when one really needed a normally open switch? I threw in the 7404 hex inverter as a way of turning the logic over. I did not give a complete circuit, but I did offer one if anyone was interested.

What came to mind was using a 5 volt 3 terminal IC voltage regulator like the LM341. Radio Shack has these for $.99 each. Plug this into any available 12 volt DC source from the output on the generator, camper or TV.

Run the 5VDC out from the regulator through the normally closed thermal switch/fuse into pin one of the 7404. A positive 5 volts on pin 1 will set pin 2 to logic low, or zero volts.

Yes, you will need a transistor or a small relay after the output on the 7404. Just a small NPN signal transistor like a 2N2222 or 2N3904. When the thermal fuse is closed, pin 2 of the 7404 will be set low (zero volts) and Q1 will be turned off since there is no base voltage/current (we need at least .7 volts to turn Q1 on).

If the thermal fuse opens, pin 1 will go low and pin 2 will set to logic high (+5 VDC). This will supply voltage to the base of Q1, turning on the collector-emitter junction and putting the line from the engine switch to ground, cutting off the engine.

Switch S1 is there to set or disable the circuit, meaning you can open the switch and the engine will run normally no matter what the state of the 7404.

This is only one idea. Actually, I can think up several others that would work equally as well that do not use the 7404. It was just what popped in my head at the time.

The entire purpose of the statement was to say that you could use a normally closed switch if a normally open one was not available.


Edited to reduce picture width that made horizontal scrolling necessary - MELM

[thehoneybees]

We purchased one of the Champion C46540 generators.
For a generator cover, we found a weber grill cover with elastic on clearance at King Soopers grocery store for $2.50 beats the ($24.99 + shipping) for a generator cover,fits nice.

Being that we have not used a generator before when camping, I'm concerned about a make do shed to sheild the generator from rain.
Has anyone made a portable generator shed? Or is it not necessary, will these generators run without being protected from the weather?

We have some corragated fiberglass panels from an old awning, that I mentioned to the hubby, that I brained up an idea to cut 4 panels to size several inches larger than the generator that would be held together with rope or heavy cable ties for the sides and 2 peices for a top.
All would fold up flat for storage.

Has anyone come up with something similar?

[bwloans]

I have been reviewing this thread for over a year and bought a Champion 3500/4250 genset almost 1 year ago. Plugged in RV(2005 Flletwood) and tried A/C(13,500 BTU) and would just bog genset down. Took to dealer and told them that the A/c would not work. They blamed genset and told me everything was fine. I tried the rewire from this thread and gen still bogged down. Just bought new Champion RV ready set with all 3500 watts and 29+ amps to RV plug. Compressor kicks on, bogs the gen, then shuts off only leaving the fan running. Dealer says that it is still the gen because it is an off-brand Chinese set...I have not taken back for them to check yet...can anyone tell me what would cause A/C to pull so much at compressor start-up? My warranty on trailer is up in 1 month. Thanks in advance....

BTW, I tried first genset on grandparents 11,000 btu A/c and it did just fine without mods...

[Horizon170]

On 6-17-06 Professor95 wrote:

If you get a reading indicating a connection between either one of the flat blades and the “U” blade, you have a fault in your camper’s electrical system that should be corrected. This type of fault can go unnoticed because your electrical system seems to work fine.


Professor, I get an open circuit when testing as you suggested which means I'm OK. It seems that I am double protected as you described.

Is there any way to use a GFI to further reduce the risk of shock when using a gen-set giving me a third protection?

[MrWizard]

grounding ROD defined by code as 8ft copper rod driven into ground depth at least 7.5 ft

when using extension cords you do not need to ground

but if you want to ground it ? DO IT RIGHT

fasten frame of generator to rod, with a copper wire sized to match service

incase of your generator 10 gauge copper

for portable use while camping do NOT ground is the normal

a 3ft steel rod in dry earth is NO ground,