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battery choice

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi,

I am in analysis paralysis.

I will be purchasing AGM jars.

Here are my two choices:

AGM L-16 Surrette 400 amp-hour six volt with 0.145 plates cost $520 plus tax and shipping Four are needed.

AGM group 27 but group 31 plates 120 amp-hours twelve volt with 0.118 plates cost $230 each plus tax and shipping. I have room for seven.

Charging sources are:

magnum inverter charger @ 125 amps max
progressive dynamics 40 amp
alternator
256 watts of solar with a blue sky 3024di controller.

Which would you choose?

Why?
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.
77 REPLIES 77

brulaz
Explorer
Explorer
pnichols wrote:
brulaz wrote:
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.


AGM batteries do not "want" high charge currents.
...

Our RV 's AGM batteries have seen only low charging currents for years because I do not use a high capacity charger on them ... other than just the engine alternator between campsites. Otherwise they only see 5-20 amps charging currents while camping.


Poorly phrased, sorry, but I see Mex has clarified.

Number of cycles may be of little importance to casual users, but very important to full timers. We're somewhere in between as snow birds. And even though we don't boondock all the time, we move frequently and set up/down uses the batteries (slide, tongue & stab. jacks).

So how many cycles do we realistically need? And even if low current
solar charging reduces the max # for AGM, would AGM still be good enough? Haven't worked out those answers yet.

Currently distracted by the incredible low weights of LFPs.
๐Ÿ™‚
2014 ORV Timber Ridge 240RKS,8500#,1250# tongue,44K miles
690W Rooftop + 340W Portable Solar,4 GC2s,215Ah@24V
2016 Ram 2500 4x4 RgCab CTD,2507# payload,10.8 mpgUS tow

pnichols
Explorer II
Explorer II
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Top notch companies with similarly top gifted design engineers are the only valid source of information about their product. Concorde says without stuttering, that low charging potential will adversely affect their product.


I'm not sure C&D Technologies ever mentions that in their VRLA technical papers. I've read a lot of these papers, but haven't yet been able to find anywhere where C&D mentions negatives for lower voltages being used for recharging of their AGM batteries similar to what Concorde maintains. In fact C&D shows charging curves using various voltages, including 13.8 volts.

Their "VRLA Batteries" section in the lower half of this page lists a lot of literature related to AGM:

http://www.cdtechno.com/resource/support_doc.html
2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Regarding high charging rates affecting the lifespan of an AGM battery i.e. low charging rates degrading lifespan...

A dozen like batteries would have to be put under test. Fifty % DOD. Three to be recharged at full charge acceptance at 14.4, three at 50% charge acceptance potential three at 30% charge acceptance potential and the last three at 10 amperes (for a 100-a/h battery.

At end of lifespan test, if a definite correlation can be shown as a descending cycle life with regards to charge potential utilized, then and only then would it be likely that high potential charging affects battery lifespan. One or two examples of "My batteries have last X years with X charging potential", does not cut it. There are too many mitigating factors.DOD, time spent in various degrees of discharge, et al.

Top notch companies with similarly top gifted design engineers are the only valid source of information about their product. Concorde says without stuttering, that low charging potential will adversely affect their product. Concorde merely manufactures a carefully crafted product. Their close tolerance plate to mat clearances affords lower impedance. But that in itself cannot possibly alter chemistry and physics. So Concorde does not manufacture a Magic Mountain product. If the tendency is valid with a Concorde battery then it is every bit as valid with an AGM Full River, Trojan, or Hung Chow, special.

China is weird. If top notch engineers and supervisory personnel control the manufacturing process, a good product is assured. When Honda, or Sony, or Meanwell have the reins at a factory, it is going to produce good quality material for the market. It's the Kung Fu Butterfly, independents that cheat and slop together goods then ship them out without testing. Korean overlords are hated. They are the strictest, meanest, and most disbelieving of the foreigners used to maintain quality control. The Americans use Koreans, so do the Japanese. (info provided by Lin Xao Peng).

You may remember a post I made about Lin announcing to me the introduction of quality AGM batteries. I was wondering about that. Senor Pianotuna suggested that Rolls is using Chinese AGM batteries. Interesting. But Lin emphasizes that LITHIUM is the big enchilada. More than a thousand Chinese manufacturers are betting the shirt off their back that Lithium is the battery of the future. I can offer this - lithium is a whole new ball game engineering and quality-control wise and this golden ring is a long, long, reach from the Chinese merry-go-round. Because China is coal rich, and petroleum poor, the Central Committee decided to prioritize electric motor vehicles. Heads will roll, blood will flow, but China will beg, borrow and steal the technology to get the job done.

If I had to guess, I would say 2018 is the year China comes online with large bank lithium alternative energy blocks. The blocks will contain monitoring and energy management instruments and control. 50,000 ton shiploads of lithium rich ore are sailing from Australia every day. This is amazing to "watch".

The market is -not- the USA. It is the Indian sub continent, Africa, South and Central America. China is bound and determined to electrify the earth with affordable solar panels and batteries so light a cargo truck can haul five times the amp hour capacity max load limit, thousands of miles from a port. The Chinese may not be top innovators but they are smart - crafty is the word. Lin told me, the government wants to relocate coal burning gigawatt grade generating plants a thousand miles away from cities and transmit ultra high capacity kw via million(s) volt DC power lines. Cars and huge trucks will be electric as will the trains. Cargo containers for everything. Mind boggling.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
full_mosey wrote:
pianotuna wrote:

...
I know a flooded battery starts to taper at 85% state of charge--12.5 amps per 100 amp-hours. Does anyone know at what voltage AGM's start to taper?



That is an interesting question.

Lifeline specs a 500% inrush limit which seems to say that a 500A charger could be used on a 100AH AGM. At what SOC% would the bulk charge end?

How long does an 80% discharged FLA stay in bulk when charged at the usual 25-33% charge rate. Is that charge rate where the 85% SOC after bulk comes from?

I would like to see a side-by-side charging test where the AGM gets a higher charge rate than the FLA allows.

HTH;
John


At a 500% charge rate, there would likely be no bulk stage... instant Vabs.

RE; an 80% dod FLA: at a 30% C-rate, at ~ 14.5Vabs, 85% efficiency, it would take 1 hr - 45 min to get a 400Ah bank to 70%soc, at which point amps would taper. The % soc at which amps taper is largely voltage related. Raise Vabs and amps taper at a higher % soc, and vice versa. Charging efficiency also plays a big role.

... A 20% C-rate would have amps taper at 80%, and a 15% C-rate would have amps taper at 85%... do you see the pattern? At the proper Vabs, amps will taper when C-Rate % = DOD %, and charging amps = Ah's depleted.

In PT's example above (12.5a/100Ah, at 85% tapering) would require a 15% C-rate (15a) @ less than the ~ 14.5Vabs. At ~ 14.5Vabs, acceptance would be 15a/100Ah, under similar conditions as stated.

... At least that's what I'm seeing, using a 10.5% C-rate. I will confirm if things hold true, regardless of C-rate, soon.

pnichols
Explorer II
Explorer II
brulaz wrote:
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.


AGM batteries do not "want" high charge currents.

What you can do with them is provide high charge currents (at the necessary voltages) and they will take indeed take/absorb the high currents. Under these condtions they can therefore be charged faster than wet cell batteries IF you have the high capacity charger to do this. AGM batteries can be charged this way because of their very low internal resistance as compared to wet cell batteries.

Our RV 's AGM batteries have seen only low charging currents for years because I do not use a high capacity charger on them ... other than just the engine alternator between campsites. Otherwise they only see 5-20 amps charging currents while camping.
2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Time at charge should be a consideration. With a 36-ampere Megawatt I can arrive at a fully recovered group 31 in 1 hour 48 minutes. I do not have a group 31-flooded battery to compare it to.

Phrased correctly an inquiry to Concorde's tech assistance would render a more comprehensive answer. Apply 14.4 volts absorbsion voltage to each and how long would it take or what is the Delta T (differential) time to achieve 100% state of charge in a 100 amp hour AGM versus a 100 ampere hour flooded deep cycle battery.

100% SOC should be emphasized, as should the point of 14.4 volts being achieved instantly at start of charging.

nightshift
Explorer
Explorer
Hi PT,
It's coming up to 3 years since I replaced my two Intersate U220s for two Trojan L-16s. What a world of difference they have made in my boondocking life. If I had the room I would have installed another bank. Well, I guess I do have room on the other side where the genny would go, but different cable lengths to the controller are a drawback. Extra weight, too. I have one 120w solar panel but next year I'm going to AM Solar for a 400w installation.
I seriously considered AGM, but I am very happy with my choice.

full_mosey
Explorer
Explorer
pianotuna wrote:

...
I know a flooded battery starts to taper at 85% state of charge--12.5 amps per 100 amp-hours. Does anyone know at what voltage AGM's start to taper?



That is an interesting question.

Lifeline specs a 500% inrush limit which seems to say that a 500A charger could be used on a 100AH AGM. At what SOC% would the bulk charge end?

How long does an 80% discharged FLA stay in bulk when charged at the usual 25-33% charge rate. Is that charge rate where the 85% SOC after bulk comes from?

I would like to see a side-by-side charging test where the AGM gets a higher charge rate than the FLA allows.

HTH;
John

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi,

No more so than L-16. I did get a quote for a 400 amp-hour LI with battery management system and it was quite competitive at around 2k

brulaz wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
If you never get below -20 or can avoid charging below -20 (-4 f), then LI are clearly the way to go.

brulaz wrote:
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.


But ouch! Big $$$
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

brulaz
Explorer
Explorer
pianotuna wrote:
If you never get below -20 or can avoid charging below -20 (-4 f), then LI are clearly the way to go.

brulaz wrote:
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.


But ouch! Big $$$
2014 ORV Timber Ridge 240RKS,8500#,1250# tongue,44K miles
690W Rooftop + 340W Portable Solar,4 GC2s,215Ah@24V
2016 Ram 2500 4x4 RgCab CTD,2507# payload,10.8 mpgUS tow

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi jrnymn7,

The original theory was that high rate charging did not affect Li, but a few folks have noted faster loss of capacity. So the tide is turning to lower rates of recharge.

I know a flooded battery starts to taper at 85% state of charge--12.5 amps per 100 amp-hours. Does anyone know at what voltage AGM's start to taper?

jrnymn7 wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder how low current charging effects LiFePo?
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
Hmmm, I wonder how low current charging effects LiFePo?

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
If you never get below -20 or can avoid charging below -20 (-4 f), then LI are clearly the way to go.

brulaz wrote:
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

brulaz
Explorer
Explorer
Pretty sobering stuff about AGMs wanting such high charge currents.
Thanks to all for the links and info.
Need to rethink how best to expand the battery bank of our solar-only system.
2014 ORV Timber Ridge 240RKS,8500#,1250# tongue,44K miles
690W Rooftop + 340W Portable Solar,4 GC2s,215Ah@24V
2016 Ram 2500 4x4 RgCab CTD,2507# payload,10.8 mpgUS tow

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi Mex,

You have never offended me. I have benefited from your knowledge time after time, and I'm grateful.

I was told (but I'm not sure the source is reliable) that Surrette AGM are produced in China.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.