Hyrbrid Inverter and generator to run AC?

[Searching_Ut]

I’m looking for inputs from those using hybrid inverters, especially in conjunction with generators to run high load devices like the AC. I currently have 600 watts of solar on the roof of my 5er, with a samlex pure sine inverter powering the whole rig AC wise. The inverter is wired through an auto transfer switch, and I put in an isolation relay to automatically turn off the Intellipower DC converter when the Inverter is switched on, but all other power management we do manually. (Fridge and Hot water to Gas, AC Off etc.)

I’m going to put more solar on the roof taking the system up to 1000 watts, and the plan for when I retire next year is to replace the current 3 group 24 batteries to 4 6 volt jars. I’m not sure what I want to do inverter wise at this time though. I’m thinking of going to a 2000 watt hybrid, such as the Xantrex freedom SW2012 12V 2000W. Besides allowing the wife to potentially use her hair dryer for short periods without my having to go out and fire up on of the 2 champion 2000 watt inverter generators we have, and maybe even some microwave popcorn in the evening. Currently I have to run both generators in parallel to run one of my 15k AC units. Would I be able to get away with just one generator being used, with the xantrex taking care of the compressor starting surge, and using the solar/batteries to fill in the generator output deficit? Looks good on paper, but I’d love to hear from folks actually making it work, if in fact it is working for them.

[Micro-Air]

westend wrote:
Matteo,
Thanks for posting about your product and the offer of information about it. Can you offer a link to the schematic and the information about expected amperage draw of the different AC units?

(Note - I had trouble embedding links and the post kept being shown with all of the links "removed". Not sure why.)

Hi westend. Thanks for your interest. You can learn all about the EasyStart model 364 by examining this web link: http://www.microair.net/main/products/product.php?id=20, the associated document links, and the YouTube Video. EasyStart 364 is now available in an IP65 (weatherproof) enclosure, which helps when installing it into a rooftop that doesn't have a large enough electric box to fully enclose it. And for the more advanced DIY customers who want to save themselves some money, there is also the EasyStart model 366. The model 366 costs about half of what the model 364 does, but it requires much more installation labor and know-how since you must handle a raw circuit board and provide your own installation components including a suitable enclosure, start cap, and wiring harness.

In the video, I also cover and present empirical data about the common debate over whether "hard start" devices provide any benefit and how they compare to EasyStart.

There is a lot of information listed in the above, so please take your time reviewing it all. After which, if you still have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

[Searching_Ut]

If the questions regarding AC power usage are for my rig, generally quite a bit less than 200 watts. We normally run whole house on a 600 watt pure sine inverter, which is wired so that the DC converter is switched off when the inverter is turned on. Loads with DC converter on varies by state of charge of the batteries of course, but my Progressive Dynamics Intellipower 80 amp unit can easily run my load up over 1000 watts. We of course wouldn't use the microwave, hair dryer etc with the AC running, and I haven't really done an accurate enough check to be certain of what my ac units run, and I just looked through my paperwork and I don't know what model those full height Dometics are. Both the inlet and outlet is completely ducted so there is no grill to remove from inside the 5er to look at so I will have to climb up on roof and pull the cover to see if there is a data plate up there.

As for burning up generator motors, the protection circuits seem to trip from inverter section issues prior to the motor lugging down too bad. The electronics in the generator would probably die prior to the motor.

[full_mosey]

MrWizard wrote:

...
all depends on the application it was designed for

there are AGMs engineered for high current
i know of one that is rated for 500watts per cell for 15 minutes until cell voltage drops to 1.65v

thats over 400amps
thats (6) cells aka 3000 watts (400+amps) for 15 minutes from (1) 12v battery

can't say what that will do to battery life or recovery

but YES, AGM can be engineered to produce very high amps

Those are the specs of my Eaton Powerware Telco pulls. Also, they have an 800A for 5min spec.

HTH;
John

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Whoops before going hog freakin' wild over any "solution" to start/run issues it must be first determined what the nominal hotel load shall be. Nowhere do I see a workup for additional AC loads that may be present when a starting AC decides to tax the capability of the generator..........hmmmmm?
If a 2,000 watt genset is dedicated to a constant load there will be the REMAINING BALANCE of wattage available. Beyond which is "No-touchee". Why is this subject such a mystery? Take a 2,000 watt generator load it to 90% potential with an A/C INCLUDING additional loads add HIGH TEMPERATURES that the A/C is being used for in the first place and you are going to have an UNHAPPY generator. Get the drift?
"Oh yes we can have air conditioning as long as the batteries are near full and other AC loads of > "x" watts do not appear" is the starting point. Continuing on to "Gee how hot is the generator running?" Is point 2.

Ignore either point and I can guarantee you will NOT be a happy camper. A siezed generator engine ain't where it's at. Know facts before engaging the dream machine....

[time2roll]

I so like the idea of these all-in-one, power combining, inverter/chargers, built-in transfer switch, and all the controls. However the more I think about it I still like separate components. Probably less efficient to double convert but if some component gives trouble the rest work until a suitable replacement can be acquired.

For heavy use I would be looking at 24v 3000w inverter and separate charging based upon available supply.

[westend]

Matteo,
Thanks for posting about your product and the offer of information about it. Can you offer a link to the schematic and the information about expected amperage draw of the different AC units?

[Micro-Air]

Searching_Ut wrote:
The more I think about it, the more the simple answer seems to be use a bigger generator.

Searching_Ut wrote:
I looked at that soft start kit, and it looks promising, but probably wouldn't work with my Champion generator.

Hello Searching_Ut. My name is Matteo and I work for Micro-Air, the manufacturer of the EasyStart soft starter that was mentioned by jharrell in this thread. We've been watching this thread quietly since the links originally posted by jharrell produced several visits to our website that led me back to this forum. I decided to register in order to subscribe to it. We most certainly want to stay within the rules of the forum, and I wasn't going to participate unless I saw anything being discussed where I could chime in and perhaps help clarify something.

In your particular case, you should not need a bigger generator since the EasyStart should work fine with your 2000W inverter-type Champion generator. In fact, as you mentioned in your very first post that started this thread, if you install EasyStart into your 15k A/C unit, you will only need one of your generators operating to start and run it, not two in parallel.

I am presently contributing to multiple RV forums where there is literally a mountain of information and countless success stories of people like you who have successfully installed EasyStart into their RV rooftops and successfully operated them off a single 2000W generator or inverter. Both Dometic and Coleman types of A/Cs.

I cannot possibly convey what has gone on in these other forums because it is far too extensive and I also don't want to dishonor this forum in any way. Other rv.net members here may have seen some of it in their blogging travels, so they may be able to vouch for what I am claiming.

To specifically help you out, let me know what the manufacturer and the model is for your 15k A/C system. I likely already have a wiring diagram in the library I have been building, and I can also share what the expected startup current surge you should expect with EasyStart. I will also be happy to answer any other questions that you may have.

So before you invest in a larger generator, please allow me to help you understand and consider the benefits of EasyStart. In the end, the decision is solely and absolutely yours on what you choose to do. I only want to help by providing you and anyone else interested with the hard facts and benefits about EasyStart that many other DIY RV customers are now already enjoying.

Thank you again for your consideration.

[Searching_Ut]

jharrell wrote:

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Check their blog Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning. This blog post has a links to what the various manufactures reported back to them with. Probably one of the big things is a "soft start" AC kit.

Their video is where I learned of the Micro-air Easystart, I can attest it works as advertised and should allow an A/C to start off 2kw generator or inverter.

Here is an install video from Micro-air which the Wynn's prompted them to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soP0uZFd0nQ&feature=youtu.be

I looked at that soft start kit, and it looks promising, but probably wouldn't work with my Champion generator. The little Champions are really a 1600 watt continuous generator at best, and I'm not sure they would have enough umph (Technical term) to keep my AC running even after I got it started.

As for running AC off solar, I have no illusions of ever doing that. No where near enough space on the top of the roof for the solar panels to start with, and I can't imagine they will improve efficiency to the point you could make it work in my lifetime. That said, I wouldn't rule out them coming up with AC units that could do the job efficiently enough to cool my rig with the power that is available. I can only hope. Of course by then, boondocking probably won't be allowed on public land anymore.

[Searching_Ut]

Again, thanks for the inputs guys, seems to be an issue that can invoke a little passion. Again, I was simply looking into the feasibility of load support for a generator that is somewhat too small for the task at hand. The more I think about it, the more the simple answer seems to be use a bigger generator. There isn't really any noise difference penalty, and fuel usage in a hard pushed 2000k gen vs a moderately pushed 3500 is probably close to the same. From what I've learned so far, when it comes to Hybrid Inverters, you can't get away with going cheap, or to small. As little as I think I would use it, I can't see any reason to go that route.

When it comes to batteries, I've actually received a lot of training on batteries, and battery maintenance over the years, having been through my first lead acid and wet cell NiCad schooling back in 1978, and my first Lithium battery schooling back in 1980, when they were basically experimental, and you had to really know what you were doing with them to prevent catastrophic failure. I still get involved in testing of "New and Improved" products, or new applications from time to time, and set up and monitor the testing for contract compliance. As a result, I tend to pretty much disregard much of what I see elsewhere as often the claims for some of the new technology gets pretty wild when compared to what I see through highly instrumented and detailed testing.

[jharrell]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Check their blog Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning. This blog post has a links to what the various manufactures reported back to them with. Probably one of the big things is a "soft start" AC kit.

Their video is where I learned of the Micro-air Easystart, I can attest it works as advertised and should allow an A/C to start off 2kw generator or inverter.

Here is an install video from Micro-air which the Wynn's prompted them to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soP0uZFd0nQ&feature=youtu.be

[MrWizard]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

brulaz wrote:

Searching_Ut wrote:

...
Since I'll probably go with the old dependable wet cell batteries I realize my high demand loads will have to be kept short.
...

As others have said, voltage sag with 4 wet-cell GC2s might be a problem at high starting loads. You might have better luck with 4 AGMs, ...

WOW !!! That is a pretty "broad brush" statement !

From my "non-expert" knowledge, there is NOTHING in an AGM battery design that makes is battery at handling high starting loads.

A quick, simple, but crude way of comparing battery A to battery B (assuming they are both deep discharge batteries)[/] is simply look at the weight. More weight means more lead means it is capable of storing more power.

all depends on the application it was designed for

there are AGMs engineered for high current
i know of one that is rated for 500watts per cell for 15 minutes until cell voltage drops to 1.65v

thats over 400amps
thats (6) cells aka 3000 watts (400+amps) for 15 minutes from (1) 12v battery

can't say what that will do to battery life or recovery

but YES, AGM can be engineered to produce very high amps

[time2roll]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
From my "non-expert" knowledge, there is NOTHING in an AGM battery design that makes is battery at handling high starting loads.

That is easy. Just compare cold cranking amps.
Most 12v will have the rating somewhere.

[brulaz]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

brulaz wrote:

Searching_Ut wrote:

...
Since I'll probably go with the old dependable wet cell batteries I realize my high demand loads will have to be kept short.
...

As others have said, voltage sag with 4 wet-cell GC2s might be a problem at high starting loads. You might have better luck with 4 AGMs, ...

WOW !!! That is a pretty "broad brush" statement !

From my "non-expert" knowledge, there is NOTHING in an AGM battery design that makes is battery at handling high starting loads.

A quick, simple, but crude way of comparing battery A to battery B (assuming they are both deep discharge batteries)[/] is simply look at the weight. More weight means more lead means it is capable of storing more power.

Maybe this will help:
https://forums.woodalls.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29057179/

You are welcome.

[pianotuna]

The grape blows the SC2030 right out of the water as far as flexibility for charging parameters. The built in blue tooth means that it can be configured using a cell phone.

If you want to stay with 12 volt--fine--but get two grapes rather than the sc2030.

The original premise of the thread was using a hybrid inverter to help start the air conditioner, in conjunction with a generator. Given the 40 amp "surge" limit for the Magnum 3012 inverter/charger, that may not work well. Going to 48 volts would be better.

My Magnum actually caught on fire in the summer of 2016. I do not know why, so I'm feeling skittish about using it in load support mode with the generator to start the roof air.

Searching_Ut wrote:
I'm also not sure I'd like giving up some of the charging adjustment capability the SC2030 gives me. Of course I wouldn't need to add another SC2030 to my setup if I stepped up to 24vdc, and I could add a 24vdc to 12vdc converter, but I'm not sure it would be worth it since 98 percent of the time I'm using my inverter I'm using it to output quite a bit less than 200 watts, and thus not putting much of a demand on my battery system. A 12 volt system seems to handle that well.

[theoldwizard1]

westend wrote:

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Not "hybrid" but worth watching the following video, especially the last 5-10 minutes.

Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning – Is it Possible?

That's kind of a demonstration. It's too bad that the Wynns are technically challenged. Yes, they proved that their AC can be run off the inverter but there is no mention of how this might effect their overall use.

Not disagreeing with you, but did you watch the last 5-10 minutes ?

Check their blog Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning. This blog post has a links to what the various manufactures reported back to them with. Probably one of the big things is a "soft start" AC kit.

Searching_Ut wrote:
I think I'll wait till spring to decide for sure, but now I'm leaning more to just going simple, 4x6 golf cart batts, 10 x 100 watt flat mount solar panels on the roof in two banks with all panels effectively in parallel, twin bogart SC2030 controllers.

Sounds reasonable. I would strongly suggest you find a distributor for Trojan T105 batteries. A bit larger, but they hold a lot more power than a GC2.