Just Bad Luck?

[spiker44]

02/06/2023 we bought a 2019 Forest River Salem Hemisphere GLX. Paid extra for a presale inspection. Our first trip was a short 2 hour drive and 2 hours back. Loved it with no problems. Second trip 4 hours each way. No problems except noticed I had to increase the gain a few times from 4.5 to 7. Third trip was crazy. About an hour into the drive we had a blow out on the pass side rear tire. Got it to the side of the rd very quickly thank goodness. It Took out the plumbing for the slide out rear sink. Changed it with spare. Now running without spare, decided to got to tire shop and get a new tire and put spare back on rack. Mechanic came to me to show other tires were oblong and not round. Also that there were two different brands of tire on it only being 4 years old. The tire had delaminated and he said it was going to happen again. I bought 4 new tires, had him check over what he could like while up on jack wiggle tires to see if loose or bearings were tight. Rv pulled better then ever we noticed as I guess we were driving on not true round tires. Arrived at out site and stayed for 2 weeks. Everything was great. Everything worked as it should in the couples trailer. On our way back we drove 4 hours and stopped for 2 days then continued on our way home. . 4 more hours and we were at our driveway. While backing up I had to turn in on an angle to back into our drive. I felt a bump and then another. I stopped and got out to find the rear drive side tire, rim and hub had broke off the axle. I found the ring and little bearings around where it cam off. After looking at it further there were no brake parts in the hub or left on the axle. No shoes or housings, no springs. no magnet . Nothing. Completely bear. I had an insurance inspector come out and he was amazed that nothing was left and that the hub came off in the drive, there should of been something. I called the dealer and they told me in no way did they sell it like that With no brakes or old used different tires. I told them I had pictures of everything. I was told to bring it in so they could look at it. It is 3 hours away and how do I drive it there on 3 wheels. I dont have trust in them now. I am going to take it to a closer repair shop. So it turns out it will be two separate claims and I will have to pay 2 deductibles. I dont see how brake parts could just disintegrate or fall off before the tire broke off. ??? Yikes What do I do know? I know blowouts happen and bearings fail butt what was overlooked on the before sale. No confidence so I will now pay again for a full inspection as I did presale !!!   Any thoughts?

[JBarca · Accepted solution]

Hi,

I'll offer a few thoughts.    First, I'm not an FR 5th wheel guru, but what model floor plan is your camper? The GLX appears to point to a series of camper, not the floor plan/model.  I was trying to see what the floor plan and ratings were for the camper you have.

The 2019 camper we are assuming is used, meaning someone else had it before you. Yes/No?

You stated there was mixed brands of tires, this points to prior issues before you acquired it.   The tires being oblong points to possible belt separation in the tire.  This can happen from a number of things  but is aggravated by tandem or triple axle setups.   The tires do not steer, they get drug around the turn and what is called "interply shear" can start inside the tire, the tread is trying rip itself off the main tire slowly as time goes on.   Learning from my own tire failures, the only way to ward off interply shear is to have excess load capacity in the tire, a guide of 20% excess capacity on the tire rating per the "heaviest loaded" tire on the camper. 

Your prior owner may have abused the tires, never ran them at the correct inflation (Max cold side wall pressure), never had enough tire load capacity plus the 20% from day one they started using it, loaded.   And the camper may have come with the bare minimum rated tire when new.   If the prior owner never weighed the camper and compared it to ratings, added the excess reserve capacity, then the tire never had a chance to last.  Four years can be the breaking point on a tire that is experiencing interply shear along the way.  If the tires where oblong, they where damaged and it just took you long enough to heat them up, and they come apart.  You inherited the tire problem.     There may also be a tire brand issue in this too.   A higher quality brand, used correctly with reserve capacity, will have a better chance to last.  You really have to be right on top about the air pressure and the loading of the tire all the time.  Consider getting a TPM system for the camper.    When one tire is low on capacity the other tire on that side also gets into a possible overload and damages the tire inside.  When a blow happens on one tire, the other tire is instantly into overload.   When tire age and loads go unchecked, you almost have to replace both tires at the same time to not have the other better tire fail is short order.

As to the wheel and hub breaking off,  did the actual axle spindle break off or did the spindle nut just let go and everything flew off?   Is there is no brake baking plate left?  Are just the shoes missing?   Need to see some pics of what is left to help better what may have happened. 

When ever I acquire a used camper, the tires are high on the list to check and replace if needed (which is most times).  There is no way to know what the prior owner did and what internal damage has been done.

Hope this helps,

John

[JBarca · Accepted solution]

Hi Spiker,

I will think some more about this and maybe add more tomorrow, but I wanted to confirm a few things after seeing your pics and now know the model number and leave you with these thoughts.

I found this online, could not find older specs on the FR web site, but found this on a 2019 Salem Hemisphere GXL 272RL https://www.woldsrvsales.com/product/new-2019-forest-river-rv-salem-hemisphere-glx-272rl-1040760-29  

There was a link on that seller website to a 2019 brochure and I downloaded a copy.  They did not list a 272RL but do list a 273RL with a floor plan very similar to what appears to be the 272RL.  It may be, the 272RL was put in after the brochure was made, a brochure typo or it is a west coast/east coast thing where models change.  Look at the specs on the web site and see if they line up with your camper. 

This much I do see,  you have what appears to be a 9,500# GVWR on the camper that is 34' 4" lg.  The empty weight is not really known which spec sheet is right, but I won't think it will matter for what I'm going to say.   By the brake plate on the axle that in your pics, it appears you have 4,400# axles with 10" x 2 1/4" wide brakes.    I'm not a fan of using those small of axles on a camper that heavy, but by the fine print, they do line up.   Years ago before the onset of the 4,400# axle with 10" brakes, you would have to get a 5,200# axle with 12" brakes.  A much better setup to allow for uneven loading of the camper.  Both FR and Keystone are doing the 4,400# setup on a close to 10,000# GVWR camper on many models, not all, but many.   The truck is used then by the book specs to hold the weight above the 8,800# of axle ratings before you reach the 9,500# GVWR.   What may not be realized by the owners, and not spoke much about at the dealers, is how the camper loads weight. The owner has to load the camper in such a way to not overload either side and the entire GVW not exceed the 9,500#.

The right side of the camper, where you had your blow out, has the kitchen slide, the inside fridge, storage, storage in the island partly goes to the right side,. the outside kitchen has cargo areas also.  It is possible the prior owner had overloaded axle rating of the right side of the camper even if entire camper was still under GVWR. And or the entire camper, 34' 4" long is a lot of camper to put cargo in, so the entire camper could be overweight.  

I'm bringing this up for a few reasons,  back to tire sizing and the inter-ply shear issues.  What are the tire and load range of the tires that where on it?  The spare may still have the sizing left on the side wall.   From you pic, it looks like ST225R15's was the tire size.  But I cannot see the load range in the pic.   They offer that size in a C, D and E load range. 

Next up is the exploded brake drum hub.  You only posted one pic looking straight on.  Being able to see the top of the axle spindle closer and the inside of the brake drum could help add more to this.  One thing sticks out, where is all the grease that should be all over the place?  When the bearing hub blew apart, one would think grease would fly all over, it seems dry and maybe even crispy?  Please confirm this.

New axles as shipped from the factory often have very little grease packed in the bearings.  If the prior owner never had the bearings repacked, then the system may have burnt up the bearings due to lack of lube on your last trip home.   Between possible overloading of axle and brake drum, lack of lube, and maybe a defect in the casting, the bearing cavity blew apart.  

That helps give some insight to what "might" have happened.  But there is the missing brake shoes and magnet arms.  While I can see the bearing casting blowing up, and when the wheel came off, it stripped the shoes and magnet along with it. The brake shoes are not held to the brake plate other then 2 small pins that can tear apart in those kind of forces and the shoes unhook from the top center holding pin.   It is hard for me to fathom that the brake shoes, and magnets, arm and all would disintegrate into dust. You need mega heat for that to happen.  I can see them flying off a long ways from the camper, but not into thin air.    This does leave an open question if the brake shoes were ever there. That is an unknown.

I would recommend before you go camping again, that all brake drums gets pulled off,  the bearings inspected and repacked by hand.  Also have your inspection shop check for loss a camber in the axle tubes . If a prior owner overloaded the axle, the bend in the middle of the axle would be more straight and the camber would not be correct. It is supposed to be bent up in the middle of the tube by the  correct amount for the weight on axle.  Placing a 4 ft level centered on the bottom of the axle tube will show a gap at the center, measure the gap with feller gauges and compare front and rear axle to compare it to the Dexter specs.   And, once you get the camper back to usable, go get the camper weight axle by axle and see where your weights with full camping gear loaded inside come out. 

Hope this helps,

John

[JBarca · Accepted solution]

Hi Spiker,

Your axle misfortune is a perfect learning topic.  My technical brain is always curious about these kinds of failures.  Was it an axle location overload, a bad casting, prior maintenance not done, etc? 

The grease in the hub pic with the tire you posted is too far away to see much detail inside the hub. Ideally, a pic of the top shaft length of the axle spindle showing detail, might show some clues too.   On the hub, a close up of the cracked metal, ideally with it not covered in grease, in the casting may turn up some clues also.   Metal fatigue and cracks leave tracks in the crack profile.  Did this fail due to one large instantaneous overload, or did the crack start, and over time rip itself until it let go?  

This is all muddied up with the missing brake parts.  If the brake parts where on the brake plate when the wheel come off,  they should be somewhere near the point where the wheel came off, and they are not.  The odds are extremely low they vaporized during the wheel flying off event.   Speculation now comes into play,  did the camper have an event in the past where the brake assembly had a failure?  And if it did, did someone remove the  brake shoes put the drum back on and tow it home. They got fed up and traded it in.   Every time I go into a camper electric brake setup for maintenance, a surprise may be inside.  And sadly, this can happen on new brakes and more so on older campers. 

By chance, did you look to see if the brake wiring behind the brake plate was unhooked? If an event happened that someone had to gut out the parts in the brake to get home from being stuck on the road, they may have unhooked the wiring so that wheel would not short out the brake system.  I know this sound a bit far fetched,  but maybe not.  The missing parts had to go somewhere?

Two different brand tires, that points to the camper had a tire failure before.  Tires on the camper that are out of round, that points to tires coming apart inside from either under inflation, overload, or not enough reserve capacity and inter-ply shear started ripping the tire apart.  All this happened before you ever owned the camper.  It takes time for this slow disaster to build and then come apart.   

 Next steps, you have made a wise choice upgrading to 5,200# axles and 12" brakes.  My personal opinion, they should of been there from day one.  This is an RV industry issue. I'm assuming you are also upgrading the leaf springs to 5,200# per pair to match the new axle tubes?  The 4,400# axles would only have springs to match the axle tube. 

As to the dealer who inspected the camper before you acquired it,  I can see how these areas could of been missed.  I'm not defending them, just stating how this may have come down.   They had the shop do a look over "without" doing checks or taking anything apart.  While a quick visual by a trained eye can see many things, in order to find out of round tires, missing brake parts, possible overloaded axles, it will take shop time to dig into this. 

The brakes, did they put a clamp on DC amp meter on the emergency breakaway switch, pull the pin and measure the current? The should get close to 12 amps, this at least tells all 4 magnets are hooked up and holding to the brake drum.   It's a quick check, that can find wiring issues or the E breakaway switch fast, and did not take a lot of time.

The camper being as old as it is, should of had a brake inspection, bearing re-pack done and a brake adjustment.  They could of even charged you for it, or told you it was included as a selling point.  This would of given a good bill of health to the brake system. 

While the camper is up on 4 jacks doing a bearing re-pack, you can check the camber in the axle tubes when the axle is unloaded.  If the bend in the middle of the axle is not in the league of when it was new, the axle was subjected to an overload somewhere along the way.   This check does not take a lot of time when the camper is up on jack stands for brake work, but it does take understanding on how to do it, and then to do it. 

And, when the tires are off, do a good visual on the suspension for worn spring bushings, the equalizer and the shackles.  This check gets a little more involved, but knowing where to look, you can see play in the bushings and wear when it starts getting excessive.   There is a reason Dexter recommends a suspension check every 6,000 miles.  By the time 8,000 to 10,000 miles comes, nylon bushings can be worn through and metal to metal grinding going on.  

The tires,  being past the 3 years age mark, did they did a tire spin test?  Jack the camper up to get the wheel off the ground, place a wood block etc by the tread, spin the wheel and look for out of round tires.   Doing this spin test as part of a brake maintenance, does not take a lot of time.  

Internal damage going on inside the tire. This one, is hard to get a true answer.  While broken cords in the tire could be found by visual and the spin test, if the cords have not yet separated,  it is complicated to almost not doable to detect tire abuse due to under inflation, overloading or lack of enough reserve capacity, but the damage is in the tire.   Experience can show, in these cases, tire age, seeing attributes miss-matched tires,   the only course of a fix, replace the tires and start out with a known setup. 

What I said above, I have come to learn through failures on dealing with restoring older campers and helping friends with new campers.  I doubt the above may be standard practice, it costs time and money to do it.    If all the above was done, and if the new owner knew to even ask if they could do it, even if they charged labor, it could of helped you not have your failures. 

We all learn from each other in these cases, where we can show and discuss things in a positive way.

Hope this helps and have fun camping with the new camper. 

John

[JBarca · Accepted solution]

Hi Spiker,

First off, you are very welcome.  I'm glad to help as much as I can for a fellow RV'er. 

Yes, I feel your pain in thinking you hired a good inspection.  You did the right thing by having the unit inspected; the issue was that whoever did it fell short of doing a good one.   Even good shops have a mess up, but what can define the shop is what happens after the mess up happens.

We all learn from these things. While some of us are more mechanically inclined than others, how does the average RV'er even know what to ask or assume is done when the shop says they inspected it? Your situation may have been the perfect storm on the running gear.  That does not give the shop a get-out-of-jail-free card, though; these issues should have been caught.  Having dealt with enough used campers and how they can fail, my opinion is that any used camper needs a complete running gear and tire inspection, including a bearing grease repack, detail tire inspection, frame crack check, and brake inspection/adjustment before the new owner takes it down the road.   A dealer can charge for this or use it as a selling incentive.  But at least address it. 

To sum this up, for those following along, the learning is to have something in writing, ideally or at least verbally; what exactly does the shop do when they call it an inspection?   It is a red flag if they do not give you any details.  Many shops have a checklist at least they give to the tech when a used camper comes in and is prepped for sale; that list is a starting place to talk to.     A used camper can have many areas with issues, such as roof caulking, siding caulking, roof or siding leaks, LP gas system checks, appliances, slide drive systems if the camper has a slide, running gear & RV main trailer frame inspection, holding tank leaks, power converter operation, battery health, and so on.  It takes "time" and experience to spot all these things.  

Find a shop or person you can trust if you cannot do this inspection yourself.  Sometimes, this is easier said than done, but our RV forum/community is an excellent place to start. Your post alone is a prime example of what to watch out for.  Ask questions and become as educated as you can going into this. 

You are on the get-well track now; good for you.   Have fun camping.

John

[spiker44]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/7NbL2thl.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/BkcGQQkl.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0wQGmqql.jpg[/IMG]

[spiker44]

if you click on the text in the upper box the pics will work  Yikes

[JBarca · Accepted solution]

Hi,

I'll offer a few thoughts.    First, I'm not an FR 5th wheel guru, but what model floor plan is your camper? The GLX appears to point to a series of camper, not the floor plan/model.  I was trying to see what the floor plan and ratings were for the camper you have.

The 2019 camper we are assuming is used, meaning someone else had it before you. Yes/No?

You stated there was mixed brands of tires, this points to prior issues before you acquired it.   The tires being oblong points to possible belt separation in the tire.  This can happen from a number of things  but is aggravated by tandem or triple axle setups.   The tires do not steer, they get drug around the turn and what is called "interply shear" can start inside the tire, the tread is trying rip itself off the main tire slowly as time goes on.   Learning from my own tire failures, the only way to ward off interply shear is to have excess load capacity in the tire, a guide of 20% excess capacity on the tire rating per the "heaviest loaded" tire on the camper. 

Your prior owner may have abused the tires, never ran them at the correct inflation (Max cold side wall pressure), never had enough tire load capacity plus the 20% from day one they started using it, loaded.   And the camper may have come with the bare minimum rated tire when new.   If the prior owner never weighed the camper and compared it to ratings, added the excess reserve capacity, then the tire never had a chance to last.  Four years can be the breaking point on a tire that is experiencing interply shear along the way.  If the tires where oblong, they where damaged and it just took you long enough to heat them up, and they come apart.  You inherited the tire problem.     There may also be a tire brand issue in this too.   A higher quality brand, used correctly with reserve capacity, will have a better chance to last.  You really have to be right on top about the air pressure and the loading of the tire all the time.  Consider getting a TPM system for the camper.    When one tire is low on capacity the other tire on that side also gets into a possible overload and damages the tire inside.  When a blow happens on one tire, the other tire is instantly into overload.   When tire age and loads go unchecked, you almost have to replace both tires at the same time to not have the other better tire fail is short order.

As to the wheel and hub breaking off,  did the actual axle spindle break off or did the spindle nut just let go and everything flew off?   Is there is no brake baking plate left?  Are just the shoes missing?   Need to see some pics of what is left to help better what may have happened. 

When ever I acquire a used camper, the tires are high on the list to check and replace if needed (which is most times).  There is no way to know what the prior owner did and what internal damage has been done.

Hope this helps,

John

[spiker44]

Hi John and thanks for all the info. I will try and answer your questions.

2019 272 RL Travel trailer ... Yes, we bought it used. Number one reason we payed for a pre-sale inspection. it has 2 axles and the tires were mixed with Castle rock and National. They had good thread and was told they were good to go. The tire that blew was indeed delamination. Once we had the 4 new tires put on we were amazed at the different ride we had towing it. I drove so much smother. The axle still had the nut on it. The hub and bark part sill on the axle had nothing in it. I found a ring, bearings and broken part of the hub where the tire lie in my drive. Absolutely no brake parts of any kind. The dealer said I didn't know what I was talking about as for sure there were brakes or they disintegrated. I find that hard to believe that everything burned up. LOL I will have to figure out on how to put up pics. 

[Cybergrunt]

Wow! That's an absolute nightmare of a trip, sorry this happened. I'm certainly far from being an expert, but it sure does sound like the dealer hosed you and sent you down the road in an unsafe condition. I wish you the best in getting everything fixed. Travel safe, wave often!