Lithium Confusion

[hpdrver]

I currently store my coach in my garage plugged into 30 amp service. My new coach came with lead acid batteries. The coach has a progressive dynamics PD 4060 charger in a mighty mini power center.

I am wanting to change batteries to lithium battle born batteries. Progressive dynamics has a replacement charger that outputs a constant 14.6 voltage but no 13.6 float voltage. Battle born told me not to leave this charger on constantly to avoid battery damage.

Progressive Dynamics also offers a complete new mighty mini power center with a output switch to change from lithium to lead acid. Since I store my coach plugged in it seems this might be better since lithium charger could be switched off and charger would go to lead acid float of 13.6. Each choice is about equal in price.

My question is how difficult are these choices to install and what choice is best. Thanks

Progressive Dynamics was shut down for Covid so no help there.

[pianotuna]

All the makers have quirks. For example, Magnum has a huge design fault on their inverter/chargers. The cooling fans are 120 volt. So if you shut down the inverter the cooling stops. (burn, baby, burn was my result). To be fair, they did stand behind the warranty.

There are rumors about Outback, too.

I don't understand why solar charge controller prices have not dropped much at all.

My favorite controller for small systems is Grape. If I do upgrade the solar (after all I purchased in 2005) I might just get 2 or 3 of their MPPT units. It would be cheaper than buying one large capacity controller, and warranty is at the local Home Depot.

[KJINTF]

I will probably take some heat here but I dont like victron, I think they are way over priced and you are paying for the name. years ago they were the best but with the emergance of renogy and a couple others I dont think they are nessasary anymore. at that price anyways

I agree - Returned my Victron Orion-TR Smart 30amp DC-DC charger due to missing functionality. Looking at the Renogy 40amp version. Any other brands I should be looking at? My application requires the ability to reduce the load current at times while keeping the same charging voltage profile. The missing functionality is the ability to adjust / reduce the output current.

[StirCrazy]

Itinerant1 wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:



Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

how big was your battery bank and solar again? would be nice to have the option of doing this in the 5th wheeh and since it needs more batteries anyways.....


Steve

500ah, 1,280w solar

hmm.. ok I am looking at going between 560 and 840AH in the 5th wheel, depending on if a buddy of mine wants to go in on some cells or not. I found a deal on 16 280Ah cells so 4 are going in the camper and 12 in the fith unless buddy wants 4 of them. but I only have 480 watts of solar up there... maybe its time for an upgrade. 4, 325w 24V pannels and a 60amp controler... would probabou need a larger wire from the combiner to the controler also.. now you have me thinking haha.

Steve

Living fulltime off the system now for almost 5 years if I were to do it over with what I know now and have experienced from it in daily conditions I would add 100ah more. The 1,280w of solar has been plenty during spring , summer, fall. In winter if I could tilt the panels that would make up any short comings in production and possibly eliminate the generator but I don't have a problem still living with full use of whatever I want in the trailer in a PSOC and if needed throw a little hold over charge with the Honda 2200.

My system is actually wired for 2 more panels but I figured to try 1,280w first and see how that worked I never added 2 more panels (360W) because it's been working perfectly with no complaints. Now if I was more in "hot" areas with no way of moving and needed to run the air conditioner from solar than I would add the 360w. 1,640w solar would carry the daily loads nicely. 😉

haha, I dont need to run an ac at all 99% of the time, but what I would like to be able to do is plug in the tabe top icemaker and bar fridge and run the Margaretavill when I am boon docking 😉

Steve

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:
Steve,

You can keep the wire the same size if you go up in voltage. I'd suggest using an 100 amp controller for 1300 watts of solar, so it won't be working "full tilt" all the time (unless the battery bank is 24 volts, too). I find electronic devices tend to last longer when they are not "pushed to the edge" of their capacity.

I generally like the Victron products, but have heard rumors that they are not quite as responsive to questions as they once were.

ya I was looking at the wire capacity charts, my 180 watt/12v pannels are actualy capable of putting out 3 amps more than 325 watt / 24V pannels so the individual runs I could leave in place and if I only went to 3 new pannels the main wire would hold the exact same current so I can leave that. upgrade to a 60 amp controler (it would be 40 currents in so 60 would give me some leway) if I go 4 pannels than I would have about 55 amps comeing in so depending what size cable they used fot the main run it may be good or not. also would have to check the battery chaerge cables and upgrde thoes but that part is easy.

I will probably take some heat here 😉 but I dont like victron, I think they are way over priced and you are paying for the name. years ago they were the best but with the emergance of renogy and a couple others I dont think they are nessasary anymore. at that price anyways ..... I used canadian solar pannels and renogy controler to build my system in the camper and I am nothing but happy with it. my 5th wheel has a go power system I had them put in when I bought it. they used to be quality but there is speculation about them now since they sold to a US company and thans only a PWM set up so I was going to do some changes anyways.

Steve

[Itinerant1]

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:



Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

how big was your battery bank and solar again? would be nice to have the option of doing this in the 5th wheeh and since it needs more batteries anyways.....


Steve

500ah, 1,280w solar

hmm.. ok I am looking at going between 560 and 840AH in the 5th wheel, depending on if a buddy of mine wants to go in on some cells or not. I found a deal on 16 280Ah cells so 4 are going in the camper and 12 in the fith unless buddy wants 4 of them. but I only have 480 watts of solar up there... maybe its time for an upgrade. 4, 325w 24V pannels and a 60amp controler... would probabou need a larger wire from the combiner to the controler also.. now you have me thinking haha.

Steve

Living fulltime off the system now for almost 5 years if I were to do it over with what I know now and have experienced from it in daily conditions I would add 100ah more. The 1,280w of solar has been plenty during spring , summer, fall. In winter if I could tilt the panels that would make up any short comings in production and possibly eliminate the generator but I don't have a problem still living with full use of whatever I want in the trailer in a PSOC and if needed throw a little hold over charge with the Honda 2200.

My system is actually wired for 2 more panels but I figured to try 1,280w first and see how that worked I never added 2 more panels (360W) because it's been working perfectly with no complaints. Now if I was more in "hot" areas with no way of moving and needed to run the air conditioner from solar than I would add the 360w. 1,640w solar would carry the daily loads nicely. 😉

[BFL13]

You can expand your solar by using a second controller with the new panels and put the two controllers on the same battery bank. (set to the same Vabs) It all comes out the same for amps to the battery, and could save a lot of difficulties and expense.

Eg, I have one MPPT with the 275w panel and a PWM with the three 100w panels on the C. Works great.

[pianotuna]

Steve,

You can keep the wire the same size if you go up in voltage. I'd suggest using an 100 amp controller for 1300 watts of solar, so it won't be working "full tilt" all the time (unless the battery bank is 24 volts, too). I find electronic devices tend to last longer when they are not "pushed to the edge" of their capacity.

I generally like the Victron products, but have heard rumors that they are not quite as responsive to questions as they once were.

[StirCrazy]

Itinerant1 wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:



Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

how big was your battery bank and solar again? would be nice to have the option of doing this in the 5th wheeh and since it needs more batteries anyways.....


Steve

500ah, 1,280w solar

hmm.. ok I am looking at going between 560 and 840AH in the 5th wheel, depending on if a buddy of mine wants to go in on some cells or not. I found a deal on 16 280Ah cells so 4 are going in the camper and 12 in the fith unless buddy wants 4 of them. but I only have 480 watts of solar up there... maybe its time for an upgrade. 4, 325w 24V pannels and a 60amp controler... would probabou need a larger wire from the combiner to the controler also.. now you have me thinking haha.

Steve

[Itinerant1]

StirCrazy wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:



Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

how big was your battery bank and solar again? would be nice to have the option of doing this in the 5th wheeh and since it needs more batteries anyways.....


Steve

500ah, 1,280w solar

[StirCrazy]

Itinerant1 wrote:



Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

how big was your battery bank and solar again? would be nice to have the option of doing this in the 5th wheeh and since it needs more batteries anyways.....


Steve

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:

01tundra wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Freep wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Unfortunately I need -40. There is at least one LI chemistry that can do that--but nothing in a large format jar. Lithium titanate

Do you really need -40? Do you have no water in your rig, only ice?

-40 will kill Li batteries. I've boondocked at -37 c (-34 f). That temperature will also kill Li.

I've since found a battery chemistry called SiO2 which shares many of the attributes of Li. The differences that I'm aware of at weight (greater than a similar capacity lead acid) and the ability to be used and charged at -40. Some of the shared items are no sulphation, and zero maintenance. That means no more needing to get to 100% state of charge.

The SiO2 is about 1/2 the price of Li. It can "do" 900 amps for 5 seconds from a 100 amp jar, which I think is better than Li.

Cycle life is 2800 if you don't go below 50% soc, and 1500 if you go down to 20% soc.

Best of all, the SiO2 are sold in Canada. $600 ($450 usd) for 100 amp-hours. This is a competitive price with AGM.

Mount the batteries inside the trailer?

That won't help save LI when the RV is in storage.

if its in storage your not using the batteries so no issues at all, the temps are only for discharging or charging. just make sure there disconected and your good to go

Steve

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:
.

The SiO2 is about 1/2 the price of Li. It can "do" 900 amps for 5 seconds from a 100 amp jar, which I think is better than Li.
.

I think you got that backwards with the examples you posted the other day of a 100 amp Li for under 400 bucks.

Steve

[3_tons]

pianotuna wrote:
3 tons I'll be in the same boat after the summer--batteries that outlive me.

Agreed ol’ pal, nowadays I find myself thinking more and more about such lofty matters as expiration dates! - lol

BTW, good luck with your new batts, I think with SiO2’s you’re making a wise choice...

3 tons

[pianotuna]

3 tons I'll be in the same boat after the summer--batteries that outlive me.