MEXICOWANDERER On Top Charging New Flooded Batteries

[KendallP]

EDIT: It appears that things are even worse than expected. MEX was busy, so I found the answer my dang self.

Simply put... you can buy a brand new battery from a reputable company, with a brand new date code... that may be charged only 85% of capacity... which then may have hardened sulfate that may never come off without knowledge and effort.

Using a highly respected, Vector/Black & Decker 1093DBD charger, upon return home from the store, I topped a brand new pair of Duracell GC2s and then hit them with an equalizing charge at 15.9v until completion.

This got the jars to a specific gravity of 1.275 at 60F.

It took me something like a dozen+ more auto-equalization sessions plus one hard, 3 hour session with an 18A manual charger before the specific gravity settled in at 1.300 at 57F. From there we can extrapolate a temperature adjusted SG of about 1.291 at 80F.

So I have confirmed MEX’s information. At least when it comes to this “big” sample of 2 batteries. Read on…


Original Post:

At the bottom of this post, in bold, is a quote from MEX on the subject. If you're not already familiar with the protocol, I do suggest reading it. He has a strong opinion about it... (which is "way" out of character for ol' MEX. 🙂 )

I'm going to see if I can get him to clarify a little bit on just how hard they should be "top charged."

MEX,

The batteries - 2-Duracell (Deka) GC15 6V, 230 Ah, 64 lb Golf Cars

Upon returning home with the new batteries, I auto-charged them with my temp-compensating, 40A Vector / Black & Decker on the 40A setting. At 40F ambient, it took about 5 minutes to go from Bulk to Absorption at 14.9v. I didn't keep track, but it took maybe 6 hours or so to complete the charge at that voltage.

I then used the relatively mild, temp-compensated, auto-equalize setting with a built-in 4 Amp max. After several hours, the current began to taper at a voltage of 15.9 until current tapered to zero and completion.

Results - SG of 1.275 @ 60F in all but one cell which was 1.285. (stored in the garage a few days on float, which brought them to that temperature before testing.) Just seemed a little on the low end to me for 6v, "high acid" batteries. I get higher numbers from my hybrid 27s.

Note: Following the auto-equalization, my little $10 HF Float Charger, with but a 500mA / 15v transformer and a peak voltage of something like 14.08 was able to get the 2 batteries to 14.00 within a day. They were bubbling a little bit, which surprised me, to some bit of chagrin. Not sure I should leave that float charger on 'em 24/7 through perpetuity... especially indoors in the garage.

So am I done? Is that considered a "Top Charge?"

Or should I hit them with the "The Beast" for awhile and resample the electrolyte? ("The Beast" being the heavy Harbor Freight unit that you and I have... which I run switched to the "Start" setting for hard equalizing at 10A... which was shown to be closer to 20 upon testing)


MEXICOWANDERER on Top Charging New Batteries

"Call a golf course if not closed and ask the PRO where they buy their batteries. Freshness matters.

Upon bringing them home give them a TOP CHARGE then let them sit overnight before cycling them. TOP CHARGING adds significant improvement to overall battery life. Not hype or myth. This is a proven discipline.

To save money battery manufacturers are forced to squeeze post greening activation charging to an absolute minimum. If top charge is used prior to first use it conditions the plates. Commercial rate electricity every cent saved is crucial.

Let the batteries rest 24 hours after top charging. This is vital to saturate the positive plates.

Batteries are chemical devices that exhibit curious electrical properties"
.

[ktmrfs]

KendallP wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:
yes, I think we have the same charger. Mine is a B&D 40/20/10/2? A with equalize and desulfate.

For GC batteries load test at rated AH testing each battery individually, that is 6V applying the load for 20 seconds. Load tester is a harbor freight "carbon pile" tester, good for up to about 500A load.

NOTE: this test method is for GC batteries only. GC batteries are designed for long life, low load not high current draw so trying to do the typical X times CCA (which GC batteries don't have a rating for anyway) or X times AH is not useful.

But be sure to measure voltage directly at the battery with a good DMM, NOT the meter on the load cell. (1) it isn't very accurate and (2) w/o a four terminal measurement it will read low because of IR drop in the cables.
And I modified mine by cutting off the clamps and crimping on terminals that I can attach to the battery posts.

However a quick check of harbor freight doesn't show the load tester anymore. all they show is one good for 100A. But if you do a search for "carbon pile load tester" they pop up on amazon, ebay and others. Several look like the harbor freight unit. A decade ago I paid $50 at harbor freight. Today similar on Amazon are around $80

And in addition to the vector charger I have a cheap harbor freight 6V/12V charger that being cheap has the advantage that the 6V position is not automatic, just keeps stuffing current in letting the voltage rise so it is easy to equalize by monitoring the voltage and stopping at around 7.5- 7.75V on a 6V battery. And it current limits to 6A. And it also doesn't show up on harbor freight website anymore. But I bet lots are available at garage sales. Just look for old, old, old battery charger w/o any of the fancy stuff.

I treat the charger, the carbon pile load cell and el cheapo harbor freight charger like gold. they do not get loaned out.

Yeah, yours is a VEC1093DBD like BFL's and mine.

I've had my eye on one of those HF 500A load testers for years. And yeah, I see some on Amazon... along with better pricing on DC clamp amprobes that I've also been pining for for years. Thanks!

I have 2 manual chargers that can equalize. One is 12V only at 10A. The other is "The Beast." A 12V / 6V Harbor Freight unit that had a short run before some bevy of lawyers put the kibash on 'em. MEX has one too. He tore his down and said they are built like tanks. He felt the components may have been military. One forum member tested his and came up with something like 18A in the 10A mode. You bypass the automatic mode by switching to "Start." Doesn't matter what current or voltage you have selected.

NOTE: MEX doesn't consider anything under 16V (8V for 6V batteries) a proper equalization charge. The Beast will easily do that for at least 3 batteries at a time and probably more. Makes it convenient when I want to equalize the whole RV bank at a time. I just need remove the negative to the coach.

Of course we know that our Vectors won't hit 16 unless it's really cold. And we also know our Vectors can certainly make progress in the 15s... and also more safely. In fact, for this thread, I used The Beast for the final session and made no further progress over the multi Vector sessions. I just could have done it faster using The Beast.

Yeah, I wouldn't loan mine out either. I have an automatic Schumacher for that.

I have this multimeter. Is there any reason to suspect it's not up to MEX's load testing challenge?

I had one of the HF "beast" chargers, it's now down at our son's house, but he brings it up when I need it.

Extech makes pretty decent meters. Not NIST traceable, but still accurate enough for our use. In fact Extech, Amprobe OEM meters to well known and well respected T&M companies.

It looks like the 330 is a peak responding rms calibrated AC meter. What that means is that for non sinusoidal AC signals (e.g. modified sine wave inverters) or for frequencies much above 60Hz the voltage reading may be way off.

My next task is to check the 4 Trojan T-125's GC2's that are 10 years old on my other trailer. It will be interesting to see how close to replacement they may be. They often get drawn down to 30% SOC or so and have lots of cycle on them.

[KendallP]

ktmrfs wrote:
yes, I think we have the same charger. Mine is a B&D 40/20/10/2? A with equalize and desulfate.

For GC batteries load test at rated AH testing each battery individually, that is 6V applying the load for 20 seconds. Load tester is a harbor freight "carbon pile" tester, good for up to about 500A load.

NOTE: this test method is for GC batteries only. GC batteries are designed for long life, low load not high current draw so trying to do the typical X times CCA (which GC batteries don't have a rating for anyway) or X times AH is not useful.

But be sure to measure voltage directly at the battery with a good DMM, NOT the meter on the load cell. (1) it isn't very accurate and (2) w/o a four terminal measurement it will read low because of IR drop in the cables.
And I modified mine by cutting off the clamps and crimping on terminals that I can attach to the battery posts.

However a quick check of harbor freight doesn't show the load tester anymore. all they show is one good for 100A. But if you do a search for "carbon pile load tester" they pop up on amazon, ebay and others. Several look like the harbor freight unit. A decade ago I paid $50 at harbor freight. Today similar on Amazon are around $80

And in addition to the vector charger I have a cheap harbor freight 6V/12V charger that being cheap has the advantage that the 6V position is not automatic, just keeps stuffing current in letting the voltage rise so it is easy to equalize by monitoring the voltage and stopping at around 7.5- 7.75V on a 6V battery. And it current limits to 6A. And it also doesn't show up on harbor freight website anymore. But I bet lots are available at garage sales. Just look for old, old, old battery charger w/o any of the fancy stuff.

I treat the charger, the carbon pile load cell and el cheapo harbor freight charger like gold. they do not get loaned out.

Yeah, yours is a VEC1093DBD like BFL's and mine.

I've had my eye on one of those HF 500A load testers for years. And yeah, I see some on Amazon... along with better pricing on DC clamp amprobes that I've also been pining for for years. Thanks!

I have 2 manual chargers that can equalize. One is 12V only at 10A. The other is "The Beast." A 12V / 6V Harbor Freight unit that had a short run before some bevy of lawyers put the kibash on 'em. MEX has one too. He tore his down and said they are built like tanks. He felt the components may have been military. One forum member tested his and came up with something like 18A in the 10A mode. You bypass the automatic mode by switching to "Start." Doesn't matter what current or voltage you have selected.

NOTE: MEX doesn't consider anything under 16V (8V for 6V batteries) a proper equalization charge. The Beast will easily do that for at least 3 batteries at a time and probably more. Makes it convenient when I want to equalize the whole RV bank at a time. I just need remove the negative to the coach.

Of course we know that our Vectors won't hit 16 unless it's really cold. And we also know our Vectors can certainly make progress in the 15s... and also more safely. In fact, for this thread, I used The Beast for the final session and made no further progress over the multi Vector sessions. I just could have done it faster using The Beast.

Yeah, I wouldn't loan mine out either. I have an automatic Schumacher for that.

I have this multimeter. Is there any reason to suspect it's not up to MEX's load testing challenge?

[ktmrfs]

KendallP wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:
Then I did a load test recomended by Mex, 20 seconds at 230A and record battery voltage. Some good and bad news from the load test. The "good" side is the Duracell only dropped to 5.75V while the Trojan's dropped to 5.48V. so it would appear that the Duracell has less internal resistance, and internal resistance is a big drawback to GC batteries. But that may also be the bad news. Since both weigh virtually the same and the same AH, what magic was done to reduce internal resistance??? first thing that comes to mind is maybe thinner plates but more of them. Drops resistance, but also is a drawback to long cycle life. The battery load cell was the same as used 12years ago with the Trojans as was the NIST traceable DMM.

Time will tell

Sounds like we all have the VEC1093DBD. BFL used to have a couple of lower amp Vectors back in the day... if he doesn't still have them. And my 25A version gave up the ghost several years back.

Is that 230A at 6V or 12?

And what load tester?

yes, I think we have the same charger. Mine is a B&D 40/20/10/2? A with equalize and desulfate.

For GC batteries load test at rated AH testing each battery individually, that is 6V applying the load for 20 seconds. Load tester is a harbor freight "carbon pile" tester, good for up to about 500A load.

NOTE: this test method is for GC batteries only. GC batteries are designed for long life, low load not high current draw so trying to do the typical X times CCA (which GC batteries don't have a rating for anyway) or X times AH is not useful.

But be sure to measure voltage directly at the battery with a good DMM, NOT the meter on the load cell. (1) it isn't very accurate and (2) w/o a four terminal measurement it will read low because of IR drop in the cables.
And I modified mine by cutting off the clamps and crimping on terminals that I can attach to the battery posts.

However a quick check of harbor freight doesn't show the load tester anymore. all they show is one good for 100A. But if you do a search for "carbon pile load tester" they pop up on amazon, ebay and others. Several look like the harbor freight unit. A decade ago I paid $50 at harbor freight. Today similar on Amazon are around $80

And in addition to the vector charger I have a cheap harbor freight 6V/12V charger that being cheap has the advantage that the 6V position is not automatic, just keeps stuffing current in letting the voltage rise so it is easy to equalize by monitoring the voltage and stopping at around 7.5- 7.75V on a 6V battery. And it current limits to 6A. And it also doesn't show up on harbor freight website anymore. But I bet lots are available at garage sales. Just look for old, old, old battery charger w/o any of the fancy stuff.

I treat the charger, the carbon pile load cell and el cheapo harbor freight charger like gold. they do not get loaned out.

[KendallP]

ktmrfs wrote:
Then I did a load test recomended by Mex, 20 seconds at 230A and record battery voltage. Some good and bad news from the load test. The "good" side is the Duracell only dropped to 5.75V while the Trojan's dropped to 5.48V. so it would appear that the Duracell has less internal resistance, and internal resistance is a big drawback to GC batteries. But that may also be the bad news. Since both weigh virtually the same and the same AH, what magic was done to reduce internal resistance??? first thing that comes to mind is maybe thinner plates but more of them. Drops resistance, but also is a drawback to long cycle life. The battery load cell was the same as used 12years ago with the Trojans as was the NIST traceable DMM.

Time will tell

Sounds like we all have the VEC1093DBD. BFL used to have a couple of lower amp Vectors back in the day... if he doesn't still have them. And my 25A version gave up the ghost several years back.

Is that 230A at 6V or 12?

And what load tester?

[ktmrfs]

KendallP wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:
I just picked up a pair of Duracell GC2 230AH batteries, with a March date code. Brought them home, hooked them up to the Vector and it didn't take long (an hour or so) for the Vector to say "full". Like Ken, my Friese (sp) hygrometer was just at the "green" 1.2ish mark..... Ok I did one full equalization, went up a bit, but definitely low from what I got with Trojan's. So I've got them going through another equalization cycle. Equalization cycle current was 4.1A and Max voltage was 15.7. Still hoping I can get them to 1.275 temp compensated.

BTW the Duracells were replacing a pair of Trojan T-125's that had been abused on a regular basis but finally gave up the gost 1 month shy if 12 years. 5 of the cells still had a good SG, but one cell was dead, dead, dead with SG near 1.0

Trojan's were on my list but at over double the cost of a duracell or Deka, and 3.5X a costco Interstate, they went out of the choice quickly.

You are fortunate to have that Vector... as I am to have my Black & Decker version. Their discontinuance was a major loss. Haven't been able to find anything like 'em since. I have the Everstart version of this charger. No idea what the "Recondition" modes does, but reviews of it are favorable. I'm running it now on those GC15s to find out.

Otherwise a decent manual charger will do it... with a little tighter monitoring.

But note that both BFL and I got to baselines of 1.290 temp adjusted with the same battery model. So I wouldn't give up at 1.275 unless the progress stabilizes there.

I did find something interesting in my evaluation of the duracell batteries. I followed the same procedure I did with the Trojan T-125's, charged them with my 6V charger to about 7.25V, then series them up and hit them multiple times with the B&D "Vector" equalization and measured SG. Trojans were at 1.275 like the Duracells.

Then I did a load test recomended by Mex, 20 seconds at 230A and record battery voltage. Some good and bad news from the load test. The "good" side is the Duracell only dropped to 5.75V while the Trojan's dropped to 5.48V. so it would appear that the Duracell has less internal resistance, and internal resistance is a big drawback to GC batteries. But that may also be the bad news. Since both weigh virtually the same and the same AH, what magic was done to reduce internal resistance??? first thing that comes to mind is maybe thinner plates but more of them. Drops resistance, but also is a drawback to long cycle life. The battery load cell was the same as used 12years ago with the Trojans as was the NIST traceable DMM.

Time will tell

[ktmrfs]

I've got the B&D 40/20/10A version that has "desulfation " mode along with an equalization mode. (insert pin to push the equalization button).

I treat it like gold since there aren't many chargers that can do what it can do as easily as it does.

[BFL13]

Vector model As no E then they made D's with an E and were then bought by B&D so they sold EG, VEC1093DBDs

[KendallP]

OK, I ran the charger on "Recondition" for awhile. It climbed to 14.38v and plateaued.

According to the graph on pg. 12 of the manual, it's supposed to be a higher voltage stage. I hope the standard absorption stage isn't any lower than that. I guess I'll have to test that now. Or perhaps it's designed to override the minimum battery voltage these units require to even begin a charge. I got the unit for its 25A capability.

Apparently it also employs pulse desulfation during the charging process.

They sell a Pro Version with a specific pulse desulfation button, so who knows. Definitely not seeing auto-equalizing, though. If anyone knows of a portable charger with auto-equalizing like our old Vectors, I'd love to hear about it. Perhaps I'll post a new thread in that regard.

[KendallP]

ktmrfs wrote:
I just picked up a pair of Duracell GC2 230AH batteries, with a March date code. Brought them home, hooked them up to the Vector and it didn't take long (an hour or so) for the Vector to say "full". Like Ken, my Friese (sp) hygrometer was just at the "green" 1.2ish mark..... Ok I did one full equalization, went up a bit, but definitely low from what I got with Trojan's. So I've got them going through another equalization cycle. Equalization cycle current was 4.1A and Max voltage was 15.7. Still hoping I can get them to 1.275 temp compensated.

BTW the Duracells were replacing a pair of Trojan T-125's that had been abused on a regular basis but finally gave up the gost 1 month shy if 12 years. 5 of the cells still had a good SG, but one cell was dead, dead, dead with SG near 1.0

Trojan's were on my list but at over double the cost of a duracell or Deka, and 3.5X a costco Interstate, they went out of the choice quickly.

You are fortunate to have that Vector... as I am to have my Black & Decker version. Their discontinuance was a major loss. Haven't been able to find anything like 'em since. I have the Everstart version of this charger. No idea what the "Recondition" modes does, but reviews of it are favorable. I'm running it now on those GC15s to find out.

Otherwise a decent manual charger will do it... with a little tighter monitoring.

But note that both BFL and I got to baselines of 1.290 temp adjusted with the same battery model. So I wouldn't give up at 1.275 unless the progress stabilizes there.

[BFL13]

Love my GC 15s! Baseline SG about 1.29. Do three Es to be sure, might as well 🙂

[ktmrfs]

I just picked up a pair of Duracell GC2 230AH batteries, with a March date code. Brought them home, hooked them up to the Vector and it didn't take long (an hour or so) for the Vector to say "full". Like Ken, my Friese (sp) hygrometer was just at the "green" 1.2ish mark..... Ok I did one full equalization, went up a bit, but definitely low from what I got with Trojan's. So I've got them going through another equalization cycle. Equalization cycle current was 4.1A and Max voltage was 15.7. Still hoping I can get them to 1.275 temp compensated.

BTW the Duracells were replacing a pair of Trojan T-125's that had been abused on a regular basis but finally gave up the gost 1 month shy if 12 years. 5 of the cells still had a good SG, but one cell was dead, dead, dead with SG near 1.0

Trojan's were on my list but at over double the cost of a duracell or Deka, and 3.5X a costco Interstate, they went out of the choice quickly.

[KendallP]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I was talking about comparing weight between brands of lithium batteries. Like more active material inside.

time2roll may have been aware of that and just chose to place the focus where it was most pleasing. Not sure.

But yeah... I caught what you were laying down. 'Twas a nice security blanket in regard to this fancy, relatively new tech... for one who has been so used to judging lead/acid batteries in that general fashion.

Eyebrow raised.

Now if only there were such a simple thumb rule to judge the expected longevity of a given BMS.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I was talking about comparing weight between brands of lithium batteries. Like more active material inside.

[time2roll]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Lithium is light but it isn't air.

About same weight for mine and 4x usable capacity.

[pianotuna]

BFL13,

Yes capacity increases. I had read 25 cycles--but Trojan says 50 to 100 for flooded.